A REALLY Hard One!!!

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Quote:
Now here's a thought--it is fairly well known that 27th Panzer was formed from parts of 22nd Panzer, which was later trapped in the Stalingrad Kessel . Is it possible that Panzerverband 700 was simply a Panzer-Spah-Kompanie until it's attachment to 27th Panzer?

Best Regards, DCC


Hello Commi.. or what ever...!!!

Our old late Federal-Chancellor Bruno Kreisky said: "Learn history! Young man!"

That was a bit harsh Michi. I don't see where, in my dealings with you, I've deserved a gratuitious insult.
But yes, my mistake.

~D

[Michi]

My dear Comrade Davidijewitch!!!

That was a bit harsh Michi. I don't see where, in my dealings with you, I've deserved a gratuitious insult.

I thought all my EMOTICONS would change it from a harsh way (which was not in my intention) into a far more convenience dialogue.


MfG Michi


PS:
Let's drink a Vodka to Jasons's Fourm and of course to "our success"!!!!

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Well, a Toast to the Forum then and the good Threads we've had!!!

incidently, I thought that the title of the Thread would attract your attention and stimulate the interests of others. Best Regards, David

[Michi]

Maybe it was planned to enlarge the PzAbt 127 with the help of the PzVbd 700 to a PzRgt??
Because "normally" a PzDiv had one PzRgt, but the 27. PzDiv had only a PzAbt.


MfG Michi

[Abel Ravasz]

Were they planning to enlarge the 16. mot div into a Pz division?

Anyways, the Pz38s could have been used at their best at the Steppe, so this is not a bad theory.

I think that during this research we haven't even touched the period of time during which this unit was part of the AOK 2.

Was there any serious fighting going on in the area of this army between nov-dec 42? Is there any mention of this unit being used as a fighting force during this period of time?

Questions that remain from the previous times:

What was Hassel's connection to 14. Pz? When did he join his unit?

What was the fate of the PzSp Kp 700? It was detached from this unit 13 jan 43 and made part of Korps Cramer, but afterwards...?

Is there any info available on the actions of this unit during the period at the Korpsgruppe Siebert (late jan)?

So, there are a couple of questions still remaining, hopefully Michi can give a blood infusion to this thread.

Best,

Abel

[Michi]

And the research goes on!!

I have some new(?) sources found for the so-called Panzerlage.
AFAIK Jentz gives the Panzerlage with the 18th November 1942.

I have the Panzerlage for the
20th November 1942
AND the
30th November 1942


First the 20th November 1942;
second the 30th November 1942:

() letzte Meldung davor

22. Panzer-Division:
Einsatzbereit: 31 (38 )
Pz II: 1
Pz 38(t): 1
Pz III/50kz: -
Pz III/50lg: 9
Pz III/75kz: 9
Pz IV/75kz: 1
Pz IV/75lg: 10
PzBefWg: -

in Instandsetzung: 19
technische Ausfälle beim Verlegungsmarsch: 22
Verbleib in alter Unterkunft: 28

For the 22. PzDiv: (without Brigade Michalik)
At this date there were still some 30 Tanks(light & medium) attached to different Infantry-Divisions.
Whether this is correct or not, I don't know.

My source was also correct!!


22.Panzer-Division:
Einsatzbereit: 9 (7)
Pz II: -
Pz 38(t): 1
Pz III/50kz: 1
Pz III/50lg: 2
Pz III/75kz: -
Pz IV/75kz: 1
Pz IV/75lg: 4
PzBefWg: -

nicht einsatzbereit: 20
kurzfristige Instandsetzung: 8
langfristige Instandsetzung: 5


27. Panzer-Division:
Einsatzbereit: 29 (29)
Pz II: -
Pz 38(t): 5
Pz III/50kz: 4
Pz III/50lg: 8
Pz III/75kz: 6
Pz IV/75kz: 1
Pz IV/75lg: 5
PzBefWg: -

bei VII. AK: 5
bei XIII. AK: 5
bei LV. AK: 5

27. Panzer-Division:
Einsatzbereit: 54 (39)
Pz II: 1
Pz 38(t): 21
Pz III/50kz: 7
Pz III/50lg: 11
Pz III/75kz: 7
Pz IV/75kz: 3
Pz IV/75lg: 4
PzBefWg: -


PzVbd 700: not mentioned on 20th November 1942!!!
Einsatzbereit:
Pz II:
Pz 38(t):
Pz III/50kz:
Pz III/50lg:
Pz III/75kz:
Pz IV/75kz:
Pz IV/75lg:
PzBefWg:

PzVbd 700:
Einsatzbereit: 17 (-)
Pz II: -
Pz 38(t): 17
Pz III/50kz: -
Pz III/50lg: -
Pz III/75kz: -
Pz IV/75kz: -
Pz IV/75lg: -
PzBefWg: -

in Instandsetzung: 33


1. Panzer-Division(rumänisch):
Einsatzbereit: 108 (122)
Pz II: -
Pz 38(t): 87
Pz III/50kz: -
Pz III/50lg: -
Pz III/75kz: 10
Pz IV/75kz: -
Pz IV/75lg: 11
PzBefWg: -

1. Panzer-Division(rumänisch):
Einsatzbereit: 3 (12)
Pz II: -
Pz 38(t): -
Pz III/50kz: -
Pz III/50lg: -
Pz III/75kz: 2
Pz IV/75kz: -
Pz IV/75lg: 1
PzBefWg: -

langfristige Instandsetzung: 27


1. Panzer-Division(ungarisch):
Einsatzbereit: 57 (63)
Pz II: 13
Pz 38(t): 38
Pz III/50kz: -
Pz III/50lg: -
Pz III/75kz: -
Pz IV/75kz: 5
Pz IV/75lg: 1
PzBefWg: -

in Ausbildung: 34

1. Panzer-Division(ungarisch):
Einsatzbereit: 73 (83)
Pz II: 5
Pz 38(t): 46
Pz III/50kz: -
Pz III/50lg: -
Pz III/75kz: 6
Pz IV/75kz: 9
Pz IV/75lg: 8
PzBefWg: -

in Instandsetzung: 25




MfG Michi

[Michi]

22/12/42:

2. Armee(German):
--PzVbd 700



11/01/43:

8. Army(Italian):

--27. PzDiv:
----KaGru FBB (w/o PzKp)
----II./PolRgt 14
----LwFBtl "Don"
----1/2 FAusbDiv 382


2. Army(Hungarian):

--PzVbd 700:
----AbtStb
----3 le PzKp
----1 m PzKp
________________________________

-Kampfgruppe Oberstleutnant Oehmichen:
-- Teile PzVbd 700
-- Teile StuGAbt 242
-- Teile FlakAbt 241
(subordinated to which Army??)


MfG Michi

[Abel Ravasz]

-Kampfgruppe Oberstleutnant Oehmichen:
-- Teile PzVbd 700
-- Teile StuGAbt 242
-- Teile FlakAbt 241
(subordinated to which Army??)

This should be the name of he KG that was mentioned in my "article";

12/01/43 (the start of the Russian offensive against the Hungarian army) given orders to move east of Boldirevka to meet the Russian spearhead (150. armoured brigade of 40. army). It had to begin counterattacking the next day in conjunction with the units of 7. (hu) light division, the 242. StuG abteilung and two FlaK abteilungen (272. and 291.). By the end of the day unit reached the frontline of the 7. light division, but it was too late to stop the collapse of this unit.

After a short brainstorming, I found this tidbit:

At 8 PM, 12 jan 1943 the staff of the Hungarian army had recieved an order from the HGr B. The army was ordered to make a couterattack against the Soviet spearhead, while the German units involved (PzVb 700, 242 StuG, 272 and 291 FlaK) had to be placed under one command. This should be your KG Oechmichen.

Best,

Abel[/quote]

[Abel Ravasz]

Name Hermann Dr Oehmichen
Rank Oberstleutnant
Awarded 12/27/1942
Branch Heer
As Führer
with/of/in Kampfgruppe Oehmichen (Pzjaeger Abt 187) 87 Infanteriedivision

From this site.

Was the PJ Abt 187 displaced in this area at the time? Because it is highly unprobable that two KG Obstl Oehmichens would be formed at the same period...

Abel

[Michi]

No hints of a 87. InfDiv or even a PzJgAbt 187 in the area.


Keep in mind that there could be 1 or 2 months between the action and the receiving the KC.
PzJgAbt 187/87. InfDiv was with the XXVIIth AK/9th Army in the area of Rshew/Rshev.


MfG Michi

[Michi]

Found a new OOB for the PzVbd 700:

-> PzVbd 700:
--> 1 x Staff company
--> 3 x light tank company(t) a hint for Pz 38(t)
--> 1 x light armored recce car company (18 x 2cm KwK & 24 x lMg)
--> 1 x heavy armored recce car platoon (6 x 7,5cm StuK & 8 x lMG) maybe SdKfz 233
--> 1 x maintenance company

attached to 16. Infantry-Division (mot).
Date is given with 15th October 1942.


For me it seems very clear the formation of the PzVbd 700:
The PzVbd 700 was formed by tanks of the 22. Panzer-Division, which stayed at the old area (28 tanks), the tanks which were in repair (19 tanks), and some of the tanks which couldn't move with the 22. PzDiv to the new fighting-area, due technical malfunctions (22 tanks)

in Instandsetzung (~ in repair): 19
technische Ausfälle beim Verlegungsmarsch (~technical malfunction during the transfer to the new area): 22
Verbleib in alter Unterkunft (~stayed at the old area): 28

With this we have so some 37 to 59 tanks for the PzVbd 700. (of probably 50)
Also the theory of PzVbd 700 attached to the 16. InfDiv (mot) seemed to be correct; although no employment is known.
After that they were transferred to the 2. Army(Hungarian).


MfG Michi


PS:
I almost forgot to mention the source:
"The German Order Of Battle - World War II" Volume 1; 1997

[Abel Ravasz]

Hi Michi,

nice theory but I have to contradict.


The PzVb 700 was formed within the 27.Pz from with the tanks of the 22.Pz + other elements. It was transferred to the ranks of the 2. German army on 28 Nov 42 by the 27.Pz.

On 26 Dec 42 the unit was transferred to the 2. Hungarian army from the AOK 2, as proved by the Ia of that army. Until that time, the unit was part of the AOK 2 as proved by the Schem.Kriegsg. of AOK 2 available at http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de .

On 13 Jan 43 transferred back to AOK 2 from the Hungarian army.

Though it is extremely unlikely for this unit to be attached to 16. mot at any time.

You could still argue that the unit was formed at 16. mot at 15. oct 42 and transferred to the 27. Pz on Nov 4. This would mean that the PzVb was indeed formed at the area of Don by 22. Pz, sent to the Caucasus for 16. mot but sent back to the Upper Don a mere three weeks later... extremely unlikely.

It is possible though that it was attached to 16. mot, but only on paper. And it definitely wasn't transferred to the Hungarians from that div.

Otherwise, the tank strengths you gave are very interesting and give a hint about the formation.

Best,

Abel

[Michi]

Kriegsgliederung der 2. Armee:
Stand 01.12.1942
XIII.AK 68.ID, 82.ID, 377.ID, 340.ID
VII.AK 75.ID, 57.ID, 323.ID
LV.AK 45.ID, 88.ID, 299.ID, 383.ID
der Armee direkt unterstellt: Verband 700

The source of this homepage is:
Tessin: „Verbände und Truppen der Deutschen Wehrmacht 1939 - 1945 --- Die Landstreitkräfte 1 -5“, page 85.
Tessin is also quoted incorrect by this hompage, as Tessin gives the units in NORTH to SOUTH direction.

I have to say Tessin has it wrong!

Tessin:„Verbände und Truppen der Deutschen Wehrmacht 1939 - 1945 --- Die Landstreitkräfte 631 - 800“, page 140.
Verband 700: is mentioned with End of November 1942 in action with the 2. Army (German) in Russia.
(maybe identically with the Battle-group Pohlmann/Führer-Begleit-Battalion?). further notes not available.
In the FPÜ (field-post number list) are only a Nachrichten-Kompanie 700 (in March incorporated into Gebirgs-Nachrichten-Abteilung 99/7. Gebirgs-Division).
and from Winter 1944/45 a Wach-Kompanie 700 at Rastenburg.

Correct is:
Panzer-Verband 700:
remove all and replace with:
* 26.10.1942 with 3 Coys Pz 38(t) und 1 Coy. Arm.Recce.Cars
Jan. 1943 wiped out.
On 01/02/1943 Remnants to PzRgt 35 and dissolved.
U: 2. Army; Gen.Kom. z.b.V. Cramer; 2. Army(Hung.); Hgr. B



That's the background why I don't think that my former post was only a

nice theory

.

MfG Michi

[Abel Ravasz]

Right, let's say the 2. AOK data is not correct. It is still sure though that the unit was part of this army at least in late December, given the FACT that the Hungarian army recieved the PzVb from that army.

Anyways, at least it is a strange coincidence that the "wrong" data from Tessin is in accordance with data from the Hungarian side and the Stoves book

Panzerverband 700 was detached from 27 Pz.Div. at 24 Uhr. on 28.11.42 and assigned directly subordinate to AOK 2.

What do you think, when was the PzVb part of the AOK 2? Could you give me a lineage of the PzVb's supreme HQs oct-jan 42/43?

Best,

Abel

[Michi]

The PzVbd 700 begins to kill me!!

Before I think of PzVbd 700 and 2. AOK (German), I have to solve one other problem.
The formation of the PzVbd 700.

From which unit, or from where did the tanks for the PzVbd 700 came??

If the tanks didn't come from the following:

in Instandsetzung (~ in repair): 19
technische Ausfälle beim Verlegungsmarsch (~technical malfunction during the transfer to the new area): 22
Verbleib in alter Unterkunft (~stayed at the old area): 28

from where than??

We shouldn't forget that the PzAbt 127/27. PzDiv was formed from the III./PzRgt 204/22. PzDiv.


MfG Michi