A REALLY Hard One!!!

German unit histories, lineages, OoBs, ToEs, commanders, fieldpost numbers, organization, etc.

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Jason Petho
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Post by Jason Petho » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:26 am

Welcome back Dr. Leo Niehorster. :D

Take care and good luck
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Post by Abel Ravasz » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:35 am

Dr Niehorster,

the second FlaK abt should be the 291st. (source Lajtos, Árpád: A 2. Magyar Hadsereg 1942-1943 - former Ia of the army, his source is the Kriegstagebuch of the army).

Best,

Abel

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Post by Leo Niehorster » Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:52 pm

Many thanks for your kind greetings. Nice to be back. Feel right at home.

The armored recon company was the 1. Lehrschwadron (Panzerspäh))/Aufklärungs-Lehr-Abteilung commanded by Oblt Waldow – designated as “Kompanie Waldow” as well as "700 Panzerspähkompanie", (don't know if either of these were official,) of Panzerverband 700 under command of HGr “B” as of 10.42. Nothing extraordinary about this, the Lehr units were consistently being sent into combat.

Exact dates
I don't get too excited about minor differences in dates. The Germans started an order at the top, which was sent to one or more lower echelons. The executing echelon then issued its *OWN* orders – but not necessarily on the same date – referring to the original order in its "remarks" line, and not necessarily quoting the original order's date. :?

This might happen at several echelons in descending order in the heirarchy. An order might indicate an officer to take command, but unless the officer was on the spot, he usually took command at a later date. In the case of named units, the redesignation was possibly made by a higher headquarters upon issuance of orders, even though the actual transfer of command took place later. Unfortunately, not all orders specifically raising / converting / redesignating all units, or for that matter actually assigning their commanders, have been located, and many certainly have not survived the war. :(

The date indicated in any of these discussions obviously then depends on which order was found. And, with orders merely referenced, and as indicated, in many cases without dates of the issuing echelons, it is sometimes very difficult to know which echelon's orders are meant - certainly not without the original order(s) on hand, anyway.

Leo

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Post by removed » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:43 pm

good informations

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Post by Shadow » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:21 pm

Leo Niehorster wrote: Exact dates
I don't get too excited about minor differences in dates. The Germans started an order at the top, which was sent to one or more lower echelons. The executing echelon then issued its *OWN* orders – but not necessarily on the same date – referring to the original order in its "remarks" line, and not necessarily quoting the original order's date. :?
This might happen at several echelons in descending order in the heirarchy. An order might indicate an officer to take command, but unless the officer was on the spot, he usually took command at a later date. In the case of named units, the redesignation was possibly made by a higher headquarters upon issuance of orders, even though the actual transfer of command took place later. Unfortunately, not all orders specifically raising / converting / redesignating all units, or for that matter actually assigning their commanders, have been located, and many certainly have not survived the war. :(
Leo
Well! That certainly clears up some of the conflictions I've run into in the past. Thanks Leo! Didn't know that!
regards -
Signed: "The Shadow"

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Post by jmark » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:59 pm

Hi guys,

Sorry about the delay. I had to find the documents amongst thousands of others. I found another 2 documents relating specifically to Panzerverband 700. They are very similar but I will post both in full. Enjoy!


[Source: T-312, Roll 1453, Frame 664]
19.10.1942
From HQ Oberkommando der Heeresgruppe B

Betr.: Abgabe der für "Panzerverband 700" vorgesehenen Einheiten

1.) Es sind an "Panzerverband 700" abzugeben und nach Kamensk in Marsch zu setzen (Meldung bei Vorkdo. "Panzerverband 700" über Ortskommandtur):
a) Sofort von 22.Pz.Div. 2 le.Pz.Kp. (t) (vollständig mit Panzern 38 (t)) und 1 Pz.Werkstattzug (vollständig).
b) Nach Abschluß "Herbstreise**" von 14.Pz.Div.
Stab und Stabskp. III./Pz.Rgt.36 (vollständig) (Vorkommando bereits voraus) und
1 m.Pz.Kp. (vollständig aber ohne Panzer).

2.) Es sind an 22.Pz.Div. in den Raum Kantemirowka (Div.Gef.St. Kalitwa, 55km nordostwärts Belowodsk) abzugeben und nach von ihr anzugebenden Zielorten in Marsch zu setzen:
a) Nach Abschluß der Kämpfe bei Stalingrad von 24.Pz.Div.
1 le.Pz,Kp. (deutsch) (vollständig aber ohne Panzer)
b) Nach Abschluß "Herbstreise" von 16.Pz.Div.
1 le.Pz,Kp. (deutsch) (vollständig aber ohne Panzer)

3.) Sämtliche Einheiten sind soweit irgend möglich im E-Transport nach Kamensk bzw. Kantemirowka zu fahren. Hierfür unmittelbares Einvernehmen zwischen den abgebenden A.O.K. und Gen.d.Trsp.Wes.

4.) "Panzerverband 700" und 22.Pz.Div. melden Eintreffen der befohlenen Abgaben.

** Operation "Herbstreise" was a proposed operation to advance towards Astrakhan.


This second document contains much of the same information as the first but there are also some additional facts.

[Source: T-312, Roll 1453, Frame 662-663]
23.10.1942
From Armee-Oberkommando 6

Betr.: Abgabe der für "Panzerverband 700" vorgesehenen Einheiten und Umgliederung der Pz.Regimenter

1.) Durch Heeresgruppe B wird der "Panzerverband 700" bestehend aus:
1 Abt.Stab mit Stabskp.
1 Pz.Späh-Kp.
3 le.Pz.Kp. (t)
1 m.Pz.Kp. (dtsch.)
1 Pz.Werkstattzug aufgestellt.

2.) Es sind an "Panzerverband 700" abzugeben und nach Kamensk in Marsch zu setzen (Meldung bei Vorkdo. "Panzerverband 700" über Ortskommandtur):
Nach Abschluß "Herbstreise" von 14.Pz.Div.
Stab und Stabskp. III./Pz.Rgt.36 (vollständig) (Vorkommando bereits voraus) und
1 m.Pz.Kp. (vollständig aber ohne Panzer).

3.) Es sind an 22.Pz.Div. in den Raum Kantemirowka (Div.Gef.St. Kalitwa, 55km nordostwärts Belowodsk) abzugeben:
a) Nach Abschluß der Kämpfe bei Stalingrad von 24.Pz.Div.
1 le.Pz,Kp. (deutsch) (vollständig aber ohne Panzer)
b) Nach Abschluß "Herbstreise" von 16.Pz.Div.
1 le.Pz,Kp. (deutsch) (vollständig aber ohne Panzer)

Die endgültigen Zielorte nach Ausladung in Kantemirowka sind von 22.Pz.Div. rechtzeitig zu erfragen.

4.) Zeitpunkt der Inmarschsetzung der Abgaben wird in jedem Falle vom AOK.6 bzw. Pz.AOK.4 befohlen.
Unter keinen Umständen dürfen vor Eintreffen dieses Befehls kämpfende Teile der betr. Div. abmarschieren.

5.) Personelle Veränderungen in den abzugebenden Einheiten sind mit sofortiger Wirkung verboten.

6.) Die abzugebenden Einheiten sind im E-Transport nach Kamensk bzw. Kantemirowka zu fahren. Transportanmeldungen sind baldmöglichst an Bv.T.O. 6 einzureichen, der den Abtransport unmittelbar mit Gen.d.Trsp.Wes. regelt.

7.) Die Pz.Regimenter der 14., 16. und 24.Pz.Div. sind anläßlich der Abgabe der o.a. Panzereinheiten in Pz.Regimenter zu je 2 Abteilungen zu je 3 le. und 1 m. Kp. umzugliedern. Durch die Umgliederung freiwerdendes Personal und Panzer stehen den Pz.Divn. zur Auffüllung von Lücken zur Verfügung.
Beendete Umgliederung ist zu melden.


I'm sure I've seen other snippets of info about Panzerverband 700, so I will keep digging. In the meantime, here is a biography of Obstltl. Kurt-Hans Hassel compiled by myself.

Hassel, Oberstleutnant Kurt-Hans
Born 26. June 1911 in Nürnberg, Bayern. Married on 16. May 1936 and had 3 sons (Kurt-Hermann born 21. February 1937, Klaus Peter born 11. August 1938 and Wolf born 9. April 1941). No son called Sven unfortunately! ;-)
Survived the war but died in an accident on 9. June 1963 near Frankfurt.

Promotions:
Fähnrich - 1. June 1933
Oberfähnrich - 26. January 1934
Leutnant - 1. March 1934
Oberleutnant - 2. October 1936 (with effect from 1. October 1936)
Rittmeister - 29. February 1940 (with effect from 1. March 1940)
Major - 16. March 1942 (with effect from 1. April 1942)
Oberstleutnant - 12. March 1943 (with effect from 1. January 1943)

Decorations:
18.9.1939 - Iron Cross Second Class (as Chef of a Pz.Späh-Kp.)
00.00.1940 - Panzer Assault Badge
00.00.1942 - Iron Cross First Class
17.06.1943 - Knight's Cross as Kdr. Panzerverband 700 (Kampfgruppe Öhmichen)

Career:
15.10.1935 - Aufkl.Abt.6
12.10.1937 - Aufkl.Rgt.6
24.11.1938 - Aufkl.Abt.8
29.4.1942 - Kdr. III./Panzer-Regiment 36
29.11.1942 - Kdr. II./Panzer-Regiment 36 (with effect from 21.10.1942)
23.12.1942 - Kdr. Pz.Verband 700 (with effect from 29.10.1942)

He was reported as being killed on 13. January 1943, but this was a mistake, and he was soon after listed as missing in action. He was in fact captured by the Russians near the Donez on 13. January 1943 and was sent to various POW camps (Krasnogorsk, Jelabuga etc.). His 14.PD comrades captured at Stalingrad in late January 1943 were very surprised to see Hassel in captivity.

On 24.11.1942, the commander of Pz.Rgt.36 - Major Willi Langkeit - said that Hassel had "proven himself to be an excellent Abteilung Kdr. during the tough combat in Stalingrad and displayed courage and good tactical knowledge that led to large successes". He was described by another commanding officer as a "spirited, passionate officer" who "can think clearly, make positive suggestions and work quickly".

One thing that puzzles me is that I've seen two different photos showing Hassel wearing his Ritterkreuz. How could this be if it was awarded after he had been captured? I've seen Knight's Crosses retouched on photos before, but these photos seem genuine. In any case, he survived the war and had a career in the Bundeswehr but I cannot determine what position he assumed.

Sources:
Personalakten of Kurt-Hans Hassel
Federl, Christian: "Die Ritterkreuzträger der Deutschen Panzerdivisionen 1939-1945"
Range, Clemens and Düfel, Andraes: "Die Ritterkreuzträger in der Bundeswehr"
Grams, Rolf: "Die 14. Panzer-Division"

Best wishes,

Jason Mark
Leaping Horseman Books
Specialising in books about Stalingrad and the Eastern Front
*** NEW BOOK! Croatian Legion ***
http://www.leapinghorseman.com.au

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Post by Leo Niehorster » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:32 am

:oops: Nice to know one has been missed, and even nicer to know one is welcome back. Thank you all very much for the kind messages, both posted here and e-mailed. :oops:

By the way, the two documents above, very kindly posted by Jason Mark, nicely enhance my remarks regarding orders and their dates. Note that the orders are first by Hgr B, and then repeated by the 6. Armee in slightly more detailed fashion. Probably the 6. Armee had also received orders regarding the restructuring of the PzRgt, and included them in its order. In this case the reference line only indicates the subject matter, and not that its order was based upon an order from a higher command, nor does it give a date for this reference.

Leo

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Post by Shadow » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:59 am

Thanks Jason, Leo, et.al.!!
That about answers all of MY questions on Verb.700.
Think I'll have to go over to that "other" forum and drag "Commissar D" back here for a look at what he started! He seems to be having an identity conflict with this "David C. Clarke" person over there! :D :D
best -
Signed: "The Shadow"

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Post by Piet Duits » Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:03 am

Jason,

I am not sure about high decorations being awarded in captivity, such as the Ritterkreuz, but I do know that promotions were given to certain men while being a POW.
Source: have to look it up, forgot where I read it.

Furthermore, on one of the SS-microfilms that I currently have (on loan), something is written about becoming a POW itself.
The german soldier is ordered to fight to the last men, "but even the most couragious soldier/officer can get into situations that surrender is the only possible thing to do". (T175 R111, 140 or 141).
This of course is only meant as an excuse, and you have to ask yourself if the inkt was worth the paper it was written on.

Back to the POW busineness: POW's in allied camps were free to write letters even to former commanders. In the Rommel biography by Maurice P. Remy the author writes that Rommel received many letters of "Afrikaner" POW's while recovering from the air attack in Normandy.

What does this have to do with Sonderverband 700? Nothing, but still a little background information.
Öhmichen -who is mentioned earlier- played a very important role in later operations, during the defence of the Reich. Background Info Part II :)


Piet
Nur für den Dienstgebrauch

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Post by jmark » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:00 pm

OK, found 4 more documents that relate to Panzerverband 700, including undoubtedly the most interesting one. Before that, however, let's get 2 small documents out of the way.

[Source: T-312, Roll 1688, Frame 527]
16.11.1942, 20.45 Uhr
From Armee-Oberkommando 6 to 14.Pz.Div.

Die für Panzerverband 700 vorgesehenen Einheitensind so in Marsch zu setzen, daß Verladung in Burowikino für:
Stab und Stabskp. III./Pz.Rgt.36 (ohne 20 Fahrzeuge Verladeklasse Ia) in Fahrtnummer 243 400 am 18.11., 8.00 Uhr für
m. Pz.Kp. (mit 20 Fahrzeuge Ia des 1. Transportes) in Fahrtnummer 243 401 am 19.11., 8.00 Uhr beginnt.

Zusatz nur für Bv.T.O. 6:
Erfolgter Abtransport ist AOK.6 zu melden.



[Source: T-312, Roll 1688, Frame 541]
11.11.1942, 1.30 Uhr
From Ia 14.Pz.Div. to AOK.6

Für Panzerverband 700 vorgesehene Teile kommen das Eintreffen ausreichenden Betriebsstoffes vorausgesetzt, am 15.11. im Ssurowikino verladebereit stehen.



OK, now the really interesting ones:

[Source: T-312, Roll 1453, Frame 589-592]
16.10.1942
From OKH

Betr.: Aufstellung Panzerverband 700, Umgliederung der Pz.Regimenter 2, 24 und 36

In Aufhebung o.a. Verfügung wird neu befohlen:

1.) Durch Heeresgruppe B ist der "Panzerverband 700" bestehend aus:
1 Abt.Stab mit Stabskp.
1 Pz.Späh-Kp.
3 le.Pz.Kp. (t)
1 m.Pz.Kp. (dtsch.)
1 Pz.Werkstattzug aufgestellt.
baldmöglichst aufzustellen und nach beendeter Aufstellung kriegsgliederungsgmäß in 16.I.D.(mot.) einzugliedern.

2.) Heeresgruppe Mitte gibt dafür ab:
a) von 10.I.D.(mot.):
die Pz.Späh-Kp. des K 40 als P.E. Personelle Veränderungen sind mit sofortiger Wirkung verboten; materielle Ausstattung verbleibt zur Verfügung 10.I.D.(mot.) Zuführung zu Chef H Rüst und BdE (Kradschtz.Ers.Btl.4 Stahnsdorf) zum materiellen Neuaufbau. Neuaufstellung der Kradschtz.Kp. der K 40 bei 10.I.D.(mot.) erfolgt nicht.
b) von 19.Pz.Div.:
1 le. Pz.Kp. (t) (einschl. Geräteausstattung und Kfz. für 80%ige Beweglichkeit) ohne Panzer. Zuführung der abzugebenden Panzer-Einheiten regelt H.Gr.Mitte mit H.Gr.B bzw OKH/Chef H Rüst und BdE unmittelbar. Die Transporte sind noch im Oktober durchzuführen.

3.) Abgaben im Bereich der H.Gr.B siehe Anlage.
Personelle Veränderungen in den abzugebenden Einheiten sind mit sofortiger Wirkung verboten.

4.) Personelle Bestimmungen
a) Offizierstellenbesetzung regelt H.Gr.B im Einvernehmen mit OKH/P.A.;
b) erforderliche personelle Ergänzungen stellt Chef H Rüst und BdE H.Gr.Mitte meldet hierzu den personellen Bedarf fernschriftlich an OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt.

5.) Materielle Bestimmungen
a) Die Pz.Späh-Kp. des K 40 wird im Bereich des Chef H Rüst und BdE gemäß K.St.N. 1162 zusätzlich eines 7,5cm - 8 Rad-Zuges neu ausgestattet und nach beendeter Aufstellung der H.Gr.B zugeführt. Die Kfz. der Kp. müssen mit zusätzlicher Kühlung, Filtern usw. für Tropeneinsatz versehen sein.
b) Die Panzerausstattung des Panzerverbandes 700 stellt 22.Pz.Div. aus ihren überzähligen Panzern 38 (t) gemäß Sonderbefehl. Die 4.(m.)/Pz.Verband 700 erhält ihre Panzerausstattung aus der Neufertigung.
c) Kfz.-Ergänzungen und sonstigen materiellen Bedarf stellt Chef H Rüst und BdE H.Gr.B meldet hierzu den materiellen Bedarf an OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt.

6.) Die Pz.Regimenter der 14., 16. und 24.Pz.Div. sind anläßlich der Abgabe von Pz.Einheiten gemäß Anlage in Pz.Regimenter zu je 2 Abteilungen zu je 3 le. und 1 m. Kp. umzugliedern. Durch die Umgliederung freiwerdendes Personal und Panzer stehen den Pz.Divn. zur Auffüllung von Lücken zur Verfügung.

7.) Beendete Aufstellung und Eingliederung des Panzerverbandes 700 in 16.I.D.(mot.) sowie erfolgte Umgliederung der Pz.Regimenter 2, 24 und 36 ist an OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. zu melden.

- 1 Anlage -
[Source: T-312, Roll 1453, Frame 592]
16.10.1942
From OKH

Abgaben (einschl. Ausgleichsabgaben) zur Aufstellung des Panzerverbandes 700 aus Bereich H.Gr.B

[Note: This Anlage was in table form but this cannot be duplicated in this forum. Therefore, I have just put all the details in one line, separated by slashes.]

[abgebender Verband / abzugebende Einheit / abzugebende mat Ausstattung / empfangende Einheit]

14.Pz.Div. / Stab und Stabskp. III./Pz.Rgt.36 / vollständig / Panzerverband 700
14.Pz.Div. / 1 m.Pz.Kp. / vollständig aber ohne Panzer / Panzerverband 700

16.Pz.Div. / 1 le.Pz.Kp. (dtsch.) / vollständig aber ohne Panzer / 22.Pz.Div.

22.Pz.Div. / 2 le.Pz.Kp. (t) / vollständig mit Panzern 38 (t) / Panzerverband 700
22.Pz.Div. / 1 Pz.Werkstattzug (t) / vollständig / Panzerverband 700

24.Pz.Div. / 1 le.Pz.Kp. (dtsch.) / vollständig aber ohne Panzer / 22.Pz.Div.


From what I've seen in this thread, these last two documents seem to answer a lot of questions.

Jason Mark
Leaping Horseman Books
Specialising in books about Stalingrad and the Eastern Front
*** NEW BOOK! Croatian Legion ***
http://www.leapinghorseman.com.au

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Post by Leo Niehorster » Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:07 am

Outstanding material, Mr. Mark.

Do you have a copy of the -Anlage-
16.10.1942
From OKH
?

Is it possible to indicate the order numbers for these documents, please?

I wonder where the 1. Pz.Sp.Kp./Aufkl.Lehr.Abt. comes in, if at all. Maybe a later substitution for the Personal Einheit (or maybe even the equipment) of Pz.Späh-Kp. of K 40?

Leo

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Post by jmark » Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:58 am

Dr Niehorster,

I don't have a physical paper copy of the OKH 16.10.1942 Anlage but I do have it on microfilm (I had a damn difficult time typing my last post - one hand holding my eyeglass while the other pecked at the keyboard!). It's a bit of a hassle getting a print out (have to dedicate a trip to Sydney University) but I should be able to scan it if you'd like a copy. A scan will be inferior to a print-out but it should still be readable.

As for the order numbers for these documents, I've already indicated that as "Source" at the top of each document, eg. the Anlage order number is T-312, Roll 1688, Frame 592.

By the way, I made a mistake in the numbering for the sources for the last two documents. It should be [Source: T-312, Roll 1688, Frame 589-592], not [Source: T-312, Roll 1453, Frame 589-592], while the Anlage is [Source: T-312, Roll 1688, Frame 592], not [Source: T-312, Roll 1453, Frame 592]

Best wishes from Sydney!

Jason Mark
Leaping Horseman Books
Specialising in books about Stalingrad and the Eastern Front
*** NEW BOOK! Croatian Legion ***
http://www.leapinghorseman.com.au

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Post by Michi » Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:33 am

Found a new OOB for the PzVbd 700:

-> PzVbd 700:
--> 1 x Staff company
--> 3 x light tank company(t) a hint for Pz 38(t)
--> 1 x light armored recce car company (18 x 2cm KwK & 24 x lMg)
--> 1 x heavy armored recce car platoon (6 x 7,5cm StuK & 8 x lMG) maybe SdKfz 233
--> 1 x maintenance company
Jason Mark:
Die Pz.Späh-Kp. des K 40 wird im Bereich des Chef H Rüst und BdE gemäß K.St.N. 1162 zusätzlich eines 7,5cm - 8 Rad-Zuges neu ausgestattet und nach beendeter Aufstellung der H.Gr.B zugeführt. Die Kfz. der Kp. müssen mit zusätzlicher Kühlung, Filtern usw. für Tropeneinsatz versehen sein.
für Tropeneinsatz
a hint that the PzVbd 700 was really supposed to be in action the Caucasus and further on, like the Generalkommando z.b.V Felmy.


Here is a link from Abel for the Pz 38(t)'s in the German Panzer-Divisions in July 1942 and November 1942:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=37643


MfG Michi
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Post by Leo Niehorster » Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:16 am

Hi Mr. Mark,
Sorry, I did not express myself correctly. What I meant by order numbers was not the order number for the NARA films, but the nomencalture of the German order on the documents.
Something like "OKH/GenStb.d.H./Org.Abt. I/445566/42 geh.Kdos."
For Hgr B substitute OKH by "Heeresgruppe B", and for 6th Army "AOK 6" , etc.

I can deeply sympathize with the small and in more than enough cases barely legible print. I also use the NARA micromfilms in some cases, (they are cheaper than the BA-MA copies, at a per page cost,) but I only have a microfiche reader to view them with, which means that only parts of the page show up on the viewer, and in many cases I have to sit sideways with bent neck trying to make sense of the documents.

Leo

Please do not go out of your way. An indication of the relevancy of the -Anlage- would be enough.

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Post by Stauffenberg » Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:17 am

Welcome back Dr. Niehorster!

Fortunately I saved almost all the info from your excellent site before disappearing. It is a great stuff.

Also see:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 388#365388

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