A REALLY Hard One!!!

German unit histories, lineages, OoBs, ToEs, commanders, fieldpost numbers, organization, etc.

Moderator: Tom Houlihan

Post Reply
User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

A REALLY Hard One!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:57 pm

Hi Guys, two years ago my good friend Michi posted this and it still remains a mystery:

Michi posted this:

"According Errata of Tessin:
*26.10.1942 with 3 coys Pz. 38(t) und 1 coy Pz.SpahWg.
Jan. 1943 aufgerieben
On 01.02.1943 remains to PzRgt. 25 and dissolved.
A: 2. Armee: Gen. Kom. z.b.V. Cramer, 2.ung. Armee, Hgr. B

According to Jentz:
*16.10.1942 with 3 coys Pz.38 (t0 and 1 coy Pz. IV
On 01.02.1943 remains to Pz.Regt. 35 and dissolved.
A: planned: 16 InfDiv (mot)

So there are a few contradicting things in both sources.
A.) Date of forming PzVbd 700?
B.) OOB of PzVbd 700??
C.) Remnant of PzVbd 700 to which PzRgt??
D.) Attachment of PzVbd 700 to ??
Which Source is correct?
Who was CO of the PzVbd 700??
Why was it called Verband (unit) not Abteilung (battalion)?"

Then there was a short post by Robert Wesby:

"Michi, Nafziger shows PzVbd 700 was disbanded on Feb. 1 1943 and incorporated into Panzer regment 35 of the 4th Panzer regiment."

So, can we all join together and try to solve the mystery of Panzerverband 700? (P.S., No, Michi didn't put me up to this! :D )

Best Regards, DCC
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:06 pm

Ah, here's a tidbit from Kurowski's "Sturmgeschutze Vor", page 63:
On 4 November, the battalion (StuG Abt. 201) was attached to the 27th Panzer Division along with Panzer Verband 700 (Panzer-Spah-Kompanie 700).
What I love about this is that a mystery Panzer Verband was attached to a mystery Panzer Division!!!! :shock: :D :shock:

Best Regards, DCC
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:37 pm

Now here's a thought--it is fairly well known that 27th Panzer was formed from parts of 22nd Panzer, which was later trapped in the Stalingrad Kessel. Is it possible that Panzerverband 700 was simply a Panzer-Spah-Kompanie until it's attachment to 27th Panzer?

Best Regards, DCC
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Sonntag
Supporter
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:15 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Sonntag » Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:20 pm

Could it be a Ghost division? I know there were a number of 'paper' divisions, ones that were on paper but didn't actually exist. I know a commander named Steiner or something like that had one such division and was ordered to releave the divisions protexting Berlin but was incapable of doing so.

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:42 pm

Hi Sonntag, no, these were real units fighting in the great bend of the Don near Stalingrad. Panzerverband 700 was a Kampfgruppe, a very mysterious Kampfgruppe.

Best Regards, DCC
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Jerry
Associate
Posts: 689
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:48 am
Location: USA

Post by Jerry » Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:04 pm

Speaking of not posting anything if you can't be helpful.........Geesh!

Hi Dav...er Commissar!

According to the history of the 27 Panzerdivision by Stoves (and my somewhat fragile translation of same) , Panzerverband 700 was created from elements of 10 I.D.(mot), 11 Pz.D., & 19 Pz.D. and intended for 16 I.D.(mot). It was apparently topped off with personnel from 14 Pz.D. and 24 Pz.D. and diverted to them (27 Pz.D.) on November 4, 1942. That's all I've decifered at this point, I'll let you know if there's more tomorrow.

Jerry
When you're in command..... command!

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:07 pm

Thanks much Jerry!!! Any help in solving this mystery is vastly appreciated. I look forward to what you can dig up!!

Best Regards, David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Jerry
Associate
Posts: 689
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:48 am
Location: USA

Post by Jerry » Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:39 am

Commrad Commissar,

Same source indicates OOB, Panzerverband 700= staff, a Pz. reconnaissance kp.; three le. Pz. Kp./Skoda-38 (t), one mittl. Pz. kp. (German Pz III and IV) and le Pz work platoon (mot).

Still trying to determine commander, and if/when Panzerverband was detached from 27 Pz.Div., will advise later.

Jerry
When you're in command..... command!

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:25 am

Hi Comrade Jerry!! I have this from a 2001 post by Comrade Greg:
by Greg:
Title: RTK WALDOW FROM PANZER VERBAND 700 FUTURE ASSIGNMENTS
"OL Waldow was with the Panzeraufklarungs from almost its inception. He was definitely a member of the aufklarung Lehr Abt. at Doberitz in 1939. He may even have served in it's forerunner, the Kavallerie und Versuchs Lehr Abt.
he was the Commander of the 1. "LehrSchwadron"/ ALA after OL Winter. Under Winter he served in Poland and France. In Russia, it would be called "Kompanie Waldow" PzVbd 700 with the 2nd Ungarian Armee.
Now, of course I've lost the post this replied to, but it seems to imply that Oberleutnant Waldow was commander, at least, of PanzerVerBand 700's Spah-Panzer Kompanie.

Best Regards, David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

Abel Ravasz
Contributor
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:44 am
Location: Hungary/Slovakia

Post by Abel Ravasz » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:03 pm

According to multiple sources, the date of formation of this unit was 28 oct 1942.

User avatar
Jerry
Associate
Posts: 689
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:48 am
Location: USA

Post by Jerry » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:51 pm

Comrade C,

Your post about Waldow got me to thinking...... so I searched the unit# field of the RKT database and... voilà: Major Kurt Hassel, RK on 17 June '43 as Kdr. Panzerverband 700!

Don't know if he was Kdr. in late '42, but maybe.

Hopefully I can do some more translating tonight.

Jerry
When you're in command..... command!

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:00 pm

EXCELLENT Comrade Jerry!!! So, this little-known unit produced at least two Knight's Cross holders!!! Must have been one hell of a time on the Don!!!

Very Best Regards, David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

Abel Ravasz
Contributor
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:44 am
Location: Hungary/Slovakia

Post by Abel Ravasz » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:20 pm

I found this while searching the web for Hassel.
HAßEL, Kurt RK: Major, Kdr. Pz.Verband 700 (i.d. 14.Pz.Div.) RK: 17.06.43
Does this mean that Hassel was a member of the 14 PzD, just he was transferred to this unit? It would be quite a crazy option :D but could be true :?

What do you think?

Abel

Abel Ravasz
Contributor
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:44 am
Location: Hungary/Slovakia

Waldow = co PzSp Kp

Post by Abel Ravasz » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:27 pm

And another thing.
Now, of course I've lost the post this replied to, but it seems to imply that Oberleutnant Waldow was commander, at least, of PanzerVerBand 700's Spah-Panzer Kompanie.
Look at this:

Waldow Hermann; Heer; Oberleutnant; Pz.Späh-Kp. 700; RK 30. Januar 1943 !!!

From http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Ord ... /RKW-R.htm

Sooo, he indeed was the CO of the PzSp Kp.!

Best,

Abel

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:29 pm

Very Possible about 14th Pz. Division, Abel! I won't be able to look further until very late tonight, but it sounds logical.

Best Regards, David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

Post Reply