Sept 10, 1944 strength

[MadDog]

I have yet to find any archival records that shed any details of the strength on or about Sept 10, 1944 for the following units:

1st SS Pz
2nd SS Pz
12th SS Pz
3rd PzGr
15 PzGr

Are there are books that contain strength (men/equip) information for these units ?

thanks,

Mad Dog

[Tanker Mike]

I have yet to find any archival records that shed any details of the strength on or about Sept 10, 1944 for the following units:

1st SS Pz
2nd SS Pz
12th SS Pz
3rd PzGr
15 PzGr

Are there are books that contain strength (men/equip) information for these units ?

Check out the link below.

http://www.militarypress.co.uk/german_a ... /index.htm

[MadDog]

Oops, I should of specified "outside of Dugdale". I have the Dugdale September book (and I would buy more from military press if they would answer their emails....) and was looking for some sort of corroboration. I had some vague hopes that specific unit histories might have some info, but those tend to be expensive and I would like to know before I purchase them.

thanks,

Mad Dog

[lebedo]

Hi MadDog . I have infos for the 15 th PGD in September . I'll post them tomorrow .

[lebedo]

I have infos for the followin unis in September if you are interested ( but I think some comes from you!!!):
111-112-113 Pzbdes,21 Pzd,17 SS Pgd .

[lebedo]

I didn't saw that you wanted infos on Sept 10th , mines are for Sept 19th . Is it ok?

[MadDog]

Sure, thats fine.

thanks,

Mad Dog

[Neill Warren]

Hi Mad Dog,

I only do the Panther Abts but between 2 Aug and 31 Oct is a black hole for I./SS Pz.Rgt 1, 2 or 12 in books or from various sites on the web that I have found, other than Dugdale. Even Kamens Fire Brigades who is usually good for these reports shows no Monthly Condition reports for any of the SS Divs for this period.

I have Dugdales Oct 44. If you need something PM me and I'll be happy to send it.

Cheers Neill.

[MadDog]

I have a bit on 1st SS Pz in the "hole" for Aug 15:

Aug 15, 1944 strength.jpg (322.79 KiB) Viewed 7041 times

Mad Dog

[Neill Warren]

Much appreciated Mad Dog

and interesting not just for I./SS Pz Rgt 1.

The Monthly condition report for 1 Aug on P.797 Fire Brigades shows 40 op + 14 str for PzV and 61 op + 14 str for PzIV and while i have not seen any reports past this it may be reasonable to assume that there were similar numbers for the beginning of Op Luttich on the 7th. If the numbers shown in the report you site are op then this sort of drop off over 6 days of Ops from approx 40 down to 7 on 13 Aug for Panthers is not unusual.

again thanks for the report. It helps a great deal

cheers Neill

[MadDog]

I may not have the context correct, if you like I can send you the page before and after.

Mad Dog

[Neill Warren]

took my old brain long enough then remembered this.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... gth+report

I do not know if Timm has made any progress with this.

Especially when looking at 17 SS PGD for what it is worth I agree with Timm that it is likely that 2 is Op, 2a is short term repair and 2c is long term repair. This would also make sense due to the predominance of "2" in the report as senior commanders would primarily want to know what was available for Ops immediately and be less interested in what may be available in 1day-3 weeks for short term repair.

If this is correct its a stark pointer to the German situation at this time. They could not even raise a total of two Kps of Panthers for the entire western front on this date.

Hope this helps,

cheers Neill

[lebedo]

Sorry I really have a few moments to answer . You can order a copy of Panzer Voran 23 the review of Mr Verwicht , this issue is specially about the Lorrainne campaign with Kriegsgliederung and auffstattung for the 111,112,113 panzerbrigaden and the 15 and 21 divisions .

[hero.]

Hello MadDog !

For the 2. SS-Pz.Div. "Das Reich" I have the following data from a strength report dated 1.10.44 :
( covering timeframe / Berichtszeitraum : 15.09.44 - 01.10.44 )

1.) pers. Strength :
_________________Offz_______Uffz____Mann___Hiwi____total

Soll__________:__444_(170)___3923___13260___(949)___17797

Fehl_________ :__168__(38)___1018_____981_____-______2205

ill/wounded___:___96__________637____3227_____-______3960

strength______:__180_(132)___2268____9052___(949)___11632
(on 1.10.44)

To reconstruct an estimate on the strength on the 15.9.44, one has to add the losses 15.9.-1.10.44
and to subtract the replacements during that timeframe from the strength on 1.10.44 :

_________________Offz_______Uffz____Mann___Hiwi____total

_+ losses______:___23_(-)_____129______745_____-______897

_- replacements:____7_(7)______92____3479_____-_____3585

estimated_str. :__196_(125)___2305____6318___(949)___8944
(on 15.9.44)

For weapons and vehicles, there are no data on the replacements, so it should not be possible to make that
same type of calculations for those.

I also have a report, dated 04.09.44, where the Division is listing an "intended" Gliederung.
I assume with reference to that intended Gliederung, it reports a "Fehl" of at least 7000 men, and a more
detailed listing of vehicles and weapons that would be required for that Gliederung.
I don't know if that would help ?!

From that listing, one could set some upper limits on what the division still had available on the Sept., 4th.
( and I would assume that there was not much replacement material until the 10.9. or until the division
took positions in the Westwall on the 13.9.44.)

Does anyone know, what the numbers in brackets (behind the officers) stands for ?
One has to sum up both to get full officer strengths.

Best regards,
hero.