FGB prior to Goldap

[laurence strong]

Hi

I am trying to confirm some numbers on what vehicles the FGB had prior to the Goldap operation in late '44. I don't remember where I found the info but this is what I have:

101 Pz Regt

1 Komp - 12 Panther
2 Komp - 12 Panther
3 Komp - 12 Panther
4 Komp - 11 JagdPanther
5 Komp - 11 StuG III

911 StuG Bde

1 Komp - 10 StuG III
2 Komp - 14 StuG III
3 Komp - 6 StuG III

PzJgr Komp - 3 Marder III, 4 JagdPanther, 6 Hetzer

Would this be correct? Also if anyone knows what the Aufklarungs Abt was issued for A/C's it would be appreciated.

Many thanks
Larry

[Alanmccoubrey]

Larry, Page 15 on this link has a good guide to the issue of the various types of armoured cars in 1944/45.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=2431

You have confused me a little with Panzer regt 101 as it wasn't ordered formed until 25th January 1945. Jentz, in PT2 , has the FGB in September 44 with a "normal" Panzer Brgade orbat with;
36 x Panther
11 x Pz IV/70(V)
4 x FlakPz IV (3.7).

That said I remember seeing StuG 911 as well and I can't remember where either !

[Alanmccoubrey]

Larry, I knew there was a reason I remembered it, I got FGB and FBB mixed up on this thread !

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1478621

[Martin Block]

Larry,

according to German strength reports the Fuehrer-Gren.Brig. on 1.11.1944 looked like this (only number of operational AVFs given, totals unknown to me):

Stab Fhr.Gren.Brig. with Pz.Nachr.Kp. (9 m.SPW)

Stab I.(gp.)/Fhr.Gren.Brig. with Stabs-Kp.
4 fully armored Pz.Gren.Kpn.
1 Versorgungs-Kp.
The battalion reported 45 operational m.SPW
Stab II.(mot.)/Fhr.Gren.Brig. with Stabs-Kp.
4 lorried Pz.Gren.Kpn.
1 Versorgungs-Kp.
The battalion reported 5 operational m.SPW

Stab III.(Pz.)/Fhr.Gren.Brig. with Aufkl.Zug (7 Pz. IV), Pz.Fla-Zug (4 'Möbelwagen'), Pi-Erk.Zug
1.-3. Kp. (19 Panther)
4. Kp. (8 Pz. IV/70(V))
5. Kp. (14 StuG III, 1 StuG IV)
Versorgungs-Kp.

1 s.I.G.Kp. (6 'Grille', 5 m.SPW, 3 towed s.I.G.)
1 Pi-Kp. (14 m.SPW)
1 Begleit-Kp. (towed Pak, half-tracked 2 cm Flak, mortars)
1 Pz.Aufkl.Kp. with 14 le.SPW (including some 250/9) and 6 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 had not yet arrived, can't tell when exactly it joined the brigade

1 Pz.Werkst.Kp.
1 grosse Kraftwagen-Kol. 120 t (lorried supply company)
1 Sanitaets-Kp.

Tactically attached to the brigade was the I./Flak-Art.Schule 1 with three 8,8 cm, one 3,7 cm and one 2 cm Flak batteries (towed).

Stu.Gesch.Brig. 911 with 22 StuG III and 9 StuH 42 joined the brigade only later just before the Ardennes offensive.

Orders for the formation of a Pz.Rgt.Stab Führer-Gren.Brig. were issued not until 4.12. and 7.12.1944 but the number 101 was not authorized until the brigade was enlarged into a division on 24.1.1945.
Jagdpanther were not issued to the brigade until mid February 1945 (http://www.panther1944.de/de/jgpz-jagdp ... -japa.html).
The brigade did neither receive any 'Marder' nor Jagdpz. 38 (see here http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=8113).


Martin Block

[laurence strong]

Hi Alan and Martin

Many thanks for the replies. Those questions are answered thanks. So there was not a 3rd Pz Gdr Bn? I found out were I ran across my numbers initially posted, it was wiki and as much as I don't like to use them they were about the only info I could find

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BChre ... er_Brigade


What was the "Kampfschule 'FGB'"?

Thanks once again
Larry

[Martin Block]

Larry,

Sorry but If I were you I would ASAP forget about that OoB on Wikipedia, because that's more or less crap which has very little to do with what original records do show!

A 3rd infantry battalion was added to the brigade not until early December 1944 when Gren.Btl. z.b.V.929 with 3 bicycle mounted Grenadier companies and a heavy weapons company arrived.

The 'Kampfschule' was a part of the Feldersatz-Batallion Fhr.Gren.Brig. (24.1.1945 renamed to Pz.Felders.Btl. 124). Here replacement soldiers arriving at the front received their final training lessons.

Martin Block

[Alanmccoubrey]

Larry, In the WW2 British Army it would have been called the "Divisional Battle School".

[laurence strong]

Thanks Alan


Martin I have never placed a great amount of faith in Wiki but sometime it is a starting point

From what I have read the Pz Bn and the I/Pz Gdr Bn were the units that stopped the Soviet advance. Is this correct or where there other elements of FGB involved?

[laurence strong]

What did the Artillery Regt consist of at this time?

Thanks
Larry

[Martin Block]

The Fhr.Gren.Brig. - like all other Panzer brigades formed in the summer of 1944 - did not have any organic artillery of its own. It had to rely on fire support provided by the divisin/corps it was attached to.

Although the formation of an artillery battalion as IV./Fhr.Gren.Brig. had already been demanded in October 1944, it took until the first half of December 1944 before it finally arrived just prior to the Ardennes offensive. The battalion then consisted of 1 'Wespe' and 2 'Hummel' batteries. An artillery regiment was only later formed when orders to enlarge the brigade into a division were issued on 24.1.1945.

Don't have more detailed information available about the combat operations of the brigade during November 1944, but since its combat power basically consisted of just the Panzer battalion and the two Panzergrenadier battalions with company sized support units, its much likely the Panthers and SPW were engaged in stopping the Soviets..

Martin Block

[laurence strong]

Once again your help has been invauable, Many thanks Martin.

Thats interesting. They were in operations with the 50 Inf Division (if what i have found is correct) so I wonder if that`s who would have given them arty support.

Larry

[Prit]

Larry

Are you talking about the counter-attack to retake Goldap? If they had any artillery support, it is likely to have come from 50 ID. From memory, the advance to link up with 5 Pz. Div prior to that was made without significant artillery support.

Prit

[laurence strong]

Hi Prit

Excellent thanks for the info I am looking atthe halt of the Soviet advance, followed by the retaking of Goldap.

[laurence strong]

If anyone knows where I could find more detailed information on both battles it would be greatly appreciated. Any kind of 'after action" reports or info on the disposition of the forces would be of help.

Thanks

Hi Martin

Do your reports give a break down on the types of m.SPW's in the first Bn? And the StuG III's in the 5th Pz Kp, were they all 75mm or were there some StuH 42s?

Thanks
Larry

[Martin Block]

Just 7,5 cm StuG III in the company, no StuH 42.

Authorized organization of I.(gp.)/Fhr.Gren.Brig.:
Stab in accordance with K.St.N. 1108 a (gp.)(f.G.)
3 Pz.Gren.Kpn. in accordance with K.St.N. 1114 c (gp.)(f.G.)
schwere Pz.Gren.Kp. in accordance with K.St.N. 1121 a (gp.)(f.G.), 1126 (gp.), and 1125 (gp.)(f.G.)
Versorg.Kp. in accordance with K.St.N. 1180 a (gp.)(f.G.)
This allowed for a total of 101 m.SPW:
45 Sd.Kfz. 251/1
6 Sd.Kfz. 251/2
12 Sd.Kfz. 251/3
2 Sd.Kfz. 251/8
12 Sd.Kfz. 251/9
3 Sd.Kfz. 251/11
21 Sd.Kfz. 251/17
These vehicles had all been delivered until the end of September 1944. At the beginning of November 1944 only about 50% of them were reported operational.

Martin Block