104th Regiment

[David W]

Gents.

On what date did the I Batt 104 Schuetzen Regiment, get re-named I Batt 104 Panzer Grenadier Regiment?
(Not the original 1/104 obviously, as that was captured in January 1942, but the oft re-named 8th Machine gun Batt)

[Jerry]

David,

17.04.42

According to Das Deutschen Divisionen 1939 - 1945, #4.

Jerry

[JeffF]

Paul Carell's Foxes of the Desert mentions the redesignation but doesn't give a specific date. The implication from the text is that it happened in January 1942 as the DAK was reorganizing for its second great offensive into eastern Libya (after being forced to retreat in December from the Tobruk positions).

According to Ossprey Battle Orders Book #20, Rommel's Afrika Korps, the designation officially took place 1 April 1942 when officially approved by OKH but the battalion had been acting as 1st battalion for some months by then.

I noticed the Germans had two 104th Infantry regiments. The 47th Infantry Division in France 1944 had the 104th Grenadier Regiment as well as the 115th Grenadier Regiment (while at the same time the 15th Panzergrenadier Division had the 104th and 115th Panzergrenadier Regiments. I know that the 47th was formed in February 1944 from the 156th Reserve Division (whose component regiments had different number designations). Were the like numbered regiments affiliated somehow?

[Leo Niehorster]

@ David
According to Tessin, the redesignation of the 21. Panzer-Division's Schützen-Regiment 104 was redesignated on 5 July 1942 as the Panzergrenadier Regiment 104.

@ Jeff
There were in actual fact FOUR regiments with the number 104.

1: The Infanterie-Regiment 104 of the 33. Infanterie-Division, which was redesignated as the Schützen-Regiment 104 on 11 Nov 40.
2: The Schützen/Panzergrenadier-Regiment 104 (as above) of the 21. Panzer Division, which ceased to exist upon the capitulation of the Axis forces in North Africa in May 1943.
3: The Panzergrenadier-Regiment 104 raised on 15 July 1943 of the 15. Panzergrenadier-Division.
4: The Grenadier-Regiment 104 of the 47. Infanterie-Division.

Note that Nos. 1 and 4 are Infantry units, whereas Nos. 2 and 3 are Schnellen/Panzertruppen units. These were two different Inspectorates, which had their own numbering system, and hence overlaps occurred.

The Ist Battalion, Schützen-Rgt 104 was captured during the Battle of Halfaya Pass on 17 Jan 42. To replace it, the 8th Machine-Gun Battalion was renamed as the new Ist Battalion, Schützen-Rgt 104 on 17 Apr 1942. (The 15th Motorcycle battalion was renamed as IIIrd Battalion, Schützen-Regiment 104 on the same day.) The redesignation as a Panzergrenadier (see above) therefore took place later.

Leo

[David W]

Thank you very much Gentlemen.

The 5th July date looks like the one I was after.

[JeffF]

Leo,
The 15th Panzer Division was formed from the 33rd Infantry Division which had both the 104th and 115th Infantry Regiments. Since these were numbered under the original infantry series, i.e., the panzergrenadier regiments WERE the original 104th and 115th infantry Regiments, why were they "re-raised?"

[David W]

A book I'm reading at work at the moment (Tobruk, the longest seige) claims that one of the Battalions of Schützen-Regiment 104 arrived by plane at Benghasi in Spring 1941. I had always assumed that both Battalions had arrived at Tripoli & via the Med.
Any thoughts gents...........

[bradhunter]

A book I'm reading at work at the moment (Tobruk, the longest seige) claims that one of the Battalions of Schützen-Regiment 104 arrived by plane at Benghasi in Spring 1941. I had always assumed that both Battalions had arrived at Tripoli & via the Med.
Any thoughts gents...........

Here's what I could find in a hurry:

04/27/41 – Air Transport – Benina
Stab, I. Schützen-Bataillon / 104. Schützen-Regiment
3. Schützen-Kompanie and 4. MG-Kompanie / 104. Schützen-Regiment

04/29/41 – Air Transport – Benina
Stab, II. Schützen-Bataillon / 104. Schützen-Regiment
1., 2., and 6. Schützen-Kompanien and 5. schwere-Kompanie / 104. Schützen-Regiment

05/02/41 – Air Transport – Benina
Stab, 104. Schützen-Regiment

05/03/41 – Air Transport – Benina
7. and 8. Schützen-Kompanien, and 9. MG-Kompanie / 104. Schützen-Regiment

05/04/41 – Air Transport – Tripoli
Stabs-Kompanie / 104. Schützen-Regiment
10. schwere-Kompanie / 104. Schützen-Regiment
11. Infanteriegeschutz Kompanie / 104. Schützen-Regiment

05/06/41 – Sea Transport – Tripoli
Vehicles for Stab and Stabskompanie / 104. Schützen-Regiment
Vehicles for 2., 3., 4. and 5. Schützen-Kompanien / 104. Schützen-Regiment

05/13/41 – Sea Transport – Tripoli
Vehicles for 6., 7., and 9. Schützen-Kompanien / 104. Schützen-Regiment

05/21/41 – Sea Transport – Tripoli
Vehicles for 8. Schützen-Kompanien / 104. Schützen-Regiment

104. Schützen-Regiment (mot.) (Organization as of 04/41)
Stab and Stabs-Kompanie
I. Schützen-Bataillon
--Stab and Stabs-Kompanie
--1. Schützen-Kompanie
--2. Schützen-Kompanie
--3. Schützen-Kompanie
--4. MG-Kompanie
--5. schwere-Kompanie
II. Schützen-Bataillon
--Stab and Stabs-Kompanie
--6. Schützen-Kompanie
--7. Schützen-Kompanie
--8. Schützen-Kompanie
--9. MG-Kompanie
--10. schwere-Kompanie
11. Infanteriegeschutz-Kompanie(Regimental Unit)

Vehicle shipments don't rectify - either they weren't sent, or arrived after 06/28/41 when the table ends.

Without hunting up the relevent KTBs (if I have them), this is as good as it gets for now.

SOURCE:
Jentz, Thomas L., "Tank Combat in North Africa - The Opening Rounds - Operations Sonnenblume, Brevity, Skorpion and Battleaxe - February 1941-June 1941," Schiffer Publishing, Ltd., Atglen, PA, 1998.

Hope this helps,

Brad

[David W]

Thanks Brad, it certainly does help!