Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

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castro323
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Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by castro323 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:50 am

Hi,
Will anyone provide me information on
Panzer Artillerie strength (Hummel, Wespe, & Grille) involved in the Ardennes offensive (Dec.1944) ?
Or any recommended books that shows panzer strength in Dec.1944.
I appreciate for the help & Thanks in advance.

AHK
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Re: Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by AHK » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:51 am

"Hitler's Last Gamble" by Trevor N. Dupuy, 1994 gives number of artillery pieces per division; but not by specific model, only type. The Order of Battle Series from Osprey, The Ardennes Offensive, three editions gives a proposed OB of each panzer artillery regiment, but not actual strength. The After the Battle edition of Battle of the Bulge Then and Now also has OB charts of the panzer divisions. You could probably cross reference all the works and come-up with a pretty good idea.
AHK

michael kenny
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Re: Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by michael kenny » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:30 am

30 Dec 1944 there were 1156 Panzers 'on hand' and 348 'en route' in The West. Along with 675/413 Stug this gives you an upper limit for the period.

Martin Block
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Re: Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by Martin Block » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:09 am

Here's an overview about availability of self-propelled artillery (Wespe & Hummel) and self-propelled heavy infantry guns (Grille) to units commited in the BotB. Exact figures for 16.12.1944 are not available as far as I can tell.

'Wespe' and 'Hummel' were only allocated to Pz.Div., Pz.Gren.Div. and a handfull of independent GHQ units (none of the latter were active in the BotB)

'Grille' were only allocated to Pz.Div. and Pz.Gren.Div., but the vehicle was never considered part of the Panzerartillerie not even the artillery as such. Same as medium or heavy mortars and light infantry guns it was a close support infantry weapon and thus were at the disposal of the Pz.Gren. regimental commanders for the fire support of their units. Under normal circumstances the artillery regiment commander had no authority over them.

2. Pz.Div. (14.12.1944)
5 Wespe
10 Hummel
3 Grille

9. Pz.Div. (10.12.1944)
0 Wespe
9 Hummel
0 Grille

116. Pz.Div. (10.12.1944)
3 Wespe
6 Hummel
5 Grille (1.12.1944)

Pz.Lehr-Div. (10.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
7 Grille (1.12.1944)

1. SS-Pz.Div. (1.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
11 Grille

2. SS-Pz.Div. (15.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
3 Grille

9. SS-Pz.Div. (10.12.1944)
6 Wespe
11 Hummel
0 Grille

12. SS-Pz.Div. (8.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
6 Grille

3. Pz.Gren.Div. (10.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
6 Grille

15. Pz.Gren.Div. (10.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
0 Grille

Führer-Gren.Brig. (16.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
6 Grille

Führer-Begl.Brig. (16.12.1944)
0 Wespe
0 Hummel
0 Grille

Martin Block

Kelvin
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Re: Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by Kelvin » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:18 am

Hi, if according to J Dugdale 's book " Panzer division in ardennes " there are some different with Martin :

Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade (Dec 16 1944)
10 x Hummel
6 x Wespe
6 x Grille

116 Panzer division (16 Dec 1944)
9 x Hummel
2 x Wespe
5 x Grille

1. SS Panzer division ( Dec 16)
1 x Wespe
11 x Grille

12 SS Panzer division ( Dec 16)
1 x Wespe
6 x Grille


Kelvin

Martin Block
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Re: Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by Martin Block » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:53 am

According to the documents I've seen so far the 'Wespe' in both 1. SS-Pz.Div. and 12. SS-Pz.Div. were reported as Munitionsträger 'Wespe', i.e. they didn' have a gun.

On 8.12.1944 OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. had ordered to send 10 'Hummel' to the formation area of the Fhr.Gren.Brig. to convert 2 batteries of the IV./Fhr.Gren.Brig. into self-propelled batteries with 5 guns each. In addition to that another battery should be converted to 'Wespe'. On 1.1.1945 the brigade reported the status of its artillery battalion as follows: 1 battery with 6 'wespe, 1 battery with 6 le.F.H. mot.Z., 1 battery with 4 s.F.H. mot.Z.. The battalion carries the remark "Noch in Zuführung, Gliederung noch nicht endgültig" which means that a) the battalion as such hat not even arrived with the brigade [it was still in eastern Germany see below) and b) conversion of the two 'Hummel' batteries was not yet completed.
That fits perfectly to an order from OKH/GenStdH/Op.Abt. which tells Wehrkreiskommando II (Stettin) to send the IV./Fhr.Gren.Brig. to the Bitburg Area on 28.12.1944 where it was to finally join the Brigade. So as far as I can tell from my available documents the battalion was not present with the brigade on 16.12.1944 (ant that is what the initial question IMHO was about) but joined it not before the early days of January 1945.

Martin Block

castro323
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Re: Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by castro323 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:50 pm

Thanks Martin Block, Kelvin, & the rest for the good information & recommended books to get.
The Germans were really under strength for the offensive, but yet, they still manage to launch it anyways.
Also thanks Martin for the good information on Grille. I didn't know that Grille wasn't considered a Panzer Artillerie.
Just learned a new thing. Thanks again.

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Re: Question on Panzer Artillerie in the Ardennes

Post by Kelvin » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:19 pm

castro323 wrote:Thanks Martin Block, Kelvin, & the rest for the good information & recommended books to get.
The Germans were really under strength for the offensive, but yet, they still manage to launch it anyways.
Also thanks Martin for the good information on Grille. I didn't know that Grille wasn't considered a Panzer Artillerie.
Just learned a new thing. Thanks again.
Hello, welcome to the post, in self-propelled artillery, German was understrength but in the area especially Sixth Armee , the main spearhear of the offensive was not so bad.

Four Waffen SS Panzer divisions had average 140 tanks/ tank destroyers. Each division had over 150 SPW average.

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