Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
Ersatz and Reserve division ?
German army had Ersatz Division and Reserve divison. What different in organization in these division with infantry division ? I see some books said. Ersatz division will become reserve division and then converted into infantry division. Anyone have ideas ? Also German also had some Field Training division. Any diffrent too ?
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Well, I am no expert, but I _think_ all three names indicated the same type of unit. These were units that were not normally expected to enter combat, but were expected to train or retrain recruits or convalescents. It appears, however, that most of these units eventually were dragged into combat by the deteriorating situation.
For example, in September 1944, as the Allies approached the German border, the Germans brought several of these units into combat - the divisions Nr. 176, 180 and 190 (there were others). Eventually these units were converted into regular infantry divisions (October, typically).
See a previous thread here about the Division Nr 176. I suspect Martin Block has info on all these units.
thanks,
Mad Dog
For example, in September 1944, as the Allies approached the German border, the Germans brought several of these units into combat - the divisions Nr. 176, 180 and 190 (there were others). Eventually these units were converted into regular infantry divisions (October, typically).
See a previous thread here about the Division Nr 176. I suspect Martin Block has info on all these units.
thanks,
Mad Dog
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Greetings “Kelvin”: 
The question of the difference between the “Ersatz” Divisionen and the “Reserve” Divisionen is a complicated one.
The German army was organized into two basic elements - the field army (Feldheer) and the replacement army (Ersatzheer). The replacement army was a different structure than the field army, the latter being the deployable fighting force of the German army.
The chief function of the replacement army (Ersatzheer) was to procure and train German recruits and was divided between the Ersatz (replacement) and the Ausbildungs (training) units, both belonging to the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army). The Ersatzheer units trained personnel and provided replacements for the Feldheer (Field Army).
The most far reaching change in the organization of the Replacement Army took place in October 1942 when all basic replacement training units were broken up into their two elements – one to handle induction and replacement and the other to handle training. The induction and replacement unit retained the designation Ersatz, but henceforth it was concerned only with receipt of recruits, forwarding the recruits and convalescents (returning to their units as speedily as possible) to their sister Ausbildungs (training) unit which, after Oct.1942, were, in most cases, classified as Reserve Divisionen. The newly created Ausbildungs (training) units [Reserve Divisionen] bore the same number as, and received the men from the same Ersatz unit, gave them their training, and then dispatched them to an affiliated field unit. The creation of these “Reserve Divisionen” was primarily done to free Feldheer Infanterie-Divisionen for use on the Eastern Front, by replacing Divisionen stationed in the west.
A number of the “Reserve Divisionen” were upgraded, during the war, to full Infanterie-Division status and, at that point, gave up all their training duties and entered combat as part of the Feldheer (Field Army). Many times this was done as a last desperate measure to fill gaps in the front lines caused by the destruction of “Regular” Infantry Divisionen.
Hopefully this explanation has been of some help to you.
Best regards,
John Mulholland
(The Shadow)
The question of the difference between the “Ersatz” Divisionen and the “Reserve” Divisionen is a complicated one.
The German army was organized into two basic elements - the field army (Feldheer) and the replacement army (Ersatzheer). The replacement army was a different structure than the field army, the latter being the deployable fighting force of the German army.
The chief function of the replacement army (Ersatzheer) was to procure and train German recruits and was divided between the Ersatz (replacement) and the Ausbildungs (training) units, both belonging to the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army). The Ersatzheer units trained personnel and provided replacements for the Feldheer (Field Army).
The most far reaching change in the organization of the Replacement Army took place in October 1942 when all basic replacement training units were broken up into their two elements – one to handle induction and replacement and the other to handle training. The induction and replacement unit retained the designation Ersatz, but henceforth it was concerned only with receipt of recruits, forwarding the recruits and convalescents (returning to their units as speedily as possible) to their sister Ausbildungs (training) unit which, after Oct.1942, were, in most cases, classified as Reserve Divisionen. The newly created Ausbildungs (training) units [Reserve Divisionen] bore the same number as, and received the men from the same Ersatz unit, gave them their training, and then dispatched them to an affiliated field unit. The creation of these “Reserve Divisionen” was primarily done to free Feldheer Infanterie-Divisionen for use on the Eastern Front, by replacing Divisionen stationed in the west.
A number of the “Reserve Divisionen” were upgraded, during the war, to full Infanterie-Division status and, at that point, gave up all their training duties and entered combat as part of the Feldheer (Field Army). Many times this was done as a last desperate measure to fill gaps in the front lines caused by the destruction of “Regular” Infantry Divisionen.
Hopefully this explanation has been of some help to you.
Best regards,
John Mulholland
(The Shadow)
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Hi, John, thank for your data. Based upon your info, Ersatz division was separate unit from Replacement army. And Feld Ausbildung Division and Reserve division were same kind of unit but in different name. I only find Feld Ausbildung Division on the Eastern front e.g. 153rd and 388th ( Nord). And I only find reserve division in the Western Front and Denmark. is it right ?
But what guidelines to decide the conversion of infantry division from Reserve/Ersatz Division ? Level of training ?
I think Hitler provide so many different names to his infantry units. You see German heer establish over thirty 500 series Grenadier Divisions in July/August 1944 and later became VG division and some of them emerged with depleted infantry division.
But what guidelines to decide the conversion of infantry division from Reserve/Ersatz Division ? Level of training ?
I think Hitler provide so many different names to his infantry units. You see German heer establish over thirty 500 series Grenadier Divisions in July/August 1944 and later became VG division and some of them emerged with depleted infantry division.
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Hans Weber
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Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Hello
"Feldausbildungsdivisionen" were part of the Feldheer (field army). They were limited to the Eastern Front, this being the important landfront of the German Army. Their mission was to train recruits having already received basic training in the homeland in the specialities of the combat theatre. They also served to occupate and to secure rear areas. They were not considered to be able for frontline duties (nicht feldverwendungsfähig). There were orginally five such Divisions (Nr. 381, 383, 388, 390, 391) subordinated to the Heeresgruppen A, B, Mitte and Nord.
"Reservedivisionen" were part of the Ersatzheer (replacement army). Their mission was the same as the "Feldausbildungsdivisionen", they were formations taken away from the homeland and stationed in occupied territory, mainly to relieve fieldunits of duties like occupation, security, anti partisan warfare etc. They were not subordinated to Army Groups, but via the Reichskommissariate in the East, Generalgouvernement Polen, the occupied countries under OB West and Croatia remaind under Chef H.Rüst und Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres. Replacement units that remained in the homeland and thus stayed in their relevant Wehrkreis in the Reich (the subdivision of the German territory regarding replacement) were termed "Division Nr. ...". Outside the Reich "Divisionen Nr..." were also to be found in Danmark and in Bohemia-Moravia (this actually being a Protectorate of the SS).
They were not upgraded into fieldunits once their training permitted. They were used to recombine and reconstitute shattered units instead. When eg the 9. and 11. Panzer Division were withdrawn for refitting to France in early 44 and 16. Pz. Gren. Div. became 116. Pz. Div. they used the 155., the 283. and the 179. Res. Divisionen to bring the up to strength.
in March/April 1945, units of the replacement army were called upon to forme into twelve so called "Ersatz- und Ausbildungsdivisionen", often using the staffs of dissolved Infantry Divisions. The last remaining Feldausbildungsdivision "Nord" (former 388. FAD) became "Ersatz- und Ausbildungsdivision Kurland".
Cheers
Hans
"Feldausbildungsdivisionen" were part of the Feldheer (field army). They were limited to the Eastern Front, this being the important landfront of the German Army. Their mission was to train recruits having already received basic training in the homeland in the specialities of the combat theatre. They also served to occupate and to secure rear areas. They were not considered to be able for frontline duties (nicht feldverwendungsfähig). There were orginally five such Divisions (Nr. 381, 383, 388, 390, 391) subordinated to the Heeresgruppen A, B, Mitte and Nord.
"Reservedivisionen" were part of the Ersatzheer (replacement army). Their mission was the same as the "Feldausbildungsdivisionen", they were formations taken away from the homeland and stationed in occupied territory, mainly to relieve fieldunits of duties like occupation, security, anti partisan warfare etc. They were not subordinated to Army Groups, but via the Reichskommissariate in the East, Generalgouvernement Polen, the occupied countries under OB West and Croatia remaind under Chef H.Rüst und Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres. Replacement units that remained in the homeland and thus stayed in their relevant Wehrkreis in the Reich (the subdivision of the German territory regarding replacement) were termed "Division Nr. ...". Outside the Reich "Divisionen Nr..." were also to be found in Danmark and in Bohemia-Moravia (this actually being a Protectorate of the SS).
They were not upgraded into fieldunits once their training permitted. They were used to recombine and reconstitute shattered units instead. When eg the 9. and 11. Panzer Division were withdrawn for refitting to France in early 44 and 16. Pz. Gren. Div. became 116. Pz. Div. they used the 155., the 283. and the 179. Res. Divisionen to bring the up to strength.
in March/April 1945, units of the replacement army were called upon to forme into twelve so called "Ersatz- und Ausbildungsdivisionen", often using the staffs of dissolved Infantry Divisions. The last remaining Feldausbildungsdivision "Nord" (former 388. FAD) became "Ersatz- und Ausbildungsdivision Kurland".
Cheers
Hans
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Hi , Hans, thank so much for your detailed information. If stayed in homeland, there were only " Division Nr" , no term " Ersatz Division" like this ? George Nagziger " German order of battle " also used term " Division Nr" but Samuel Mitcham recent book German order of battle : use " Replacement division or German term " Ersatz division" But according to your data, replacement or ersatz is not existence and only author added it, is true ?
Samuel book also have one unit : Landesschutzen Division , do you hear that ?
Samuel book also have one unit : Landesschutzen Division , do you hear that ?
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Kelvin wrote:Hi, John, thank for your data. Based upon your info, Ersatz division was separate unit from Replacement army. And Feld Ausbildung Division and Reserve division were same kind of unit but in different name. I only find Feld Ausbildung Division on the Eastern front e.g. 153rd and 388th ( Nord). And I only find reserve division in the Western Front and Denmark. is it right ?
But what guidelines to decide the conversion of infantry division from Reserve/Ersatz Division ? Level of training ?
I think Hitler provide so many different names to his infantry units. You see German heer establish over thirty 500 series Grenadier Divisions in July/August 1944 and later became VG division and some of them emerged with depleted infantry division.
Hi "Kelvin" !!
Just so you don't get too confused:
A. Each Replacement Division (referred to as a Div.Nr.) was made up of two sections (as quoted in my response above):
"The chief function of the replacement army (Ersatzheer) was to procure and train German recruits and was divided between the Ersatz (replacement) and the Ausbildungs (training) units, both belonging to the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army). The Ersatzheer units trained personnel and provided replacements for the Feldheer (Field Army)."
B. Each Div.Nr. (Replacement Division) would consist of BOTH of these sections. The "Ersatz" section controlled the incoming recruits through their initial indoctrination ("boot camp"). When they had completed this part of their training they were promoted to the "Ausbildungs" section for more advanced training.
C. As I stated, above, in Oct.1942 the "Ausbildungs" sections of some of the Ersatz Divisionen (Div.Nr.) were split away from the parent organizations and formed into "Reserve Divisionen.", BUT, they continued on with their advanced training, only now they were stationed in various foreign locations, as explained by Hans Weber above. The “Ersatz” sections of the “Div.Nr.” remained behind to continue with the recruiting and initial training of the new incoming personnel. Wounded soldiers, while on convalescence, were also stationed with these “Ersatz” sections while awaiting return to their parent units.
D. For further explanation on this subject see:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8008
Best regards,
John Mulholland
(The Shadow)
Signed: "The Shadow"
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Hi, John, thank you for your explanation.
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Hans Weber
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Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Hello
Indeed, I the Divisions of the Replacement Army were the "Divisionen Nr...". To understand the system, remember that it was the staff that was the only permament structure. The men undergoing the training were there only passing through on their way to the Feldheer. So under a "Division Nr. ..", we should actually in the first place understand the command structure (staff) which controlled the various Ersatz- und Ausbildungseinheiten (the size of Regiments and/or Battalions) in the Wehrkreis. These training units itself were dispersed on various installations throughout the Wehrkreis. They were not combat formations. They however could be mobilized into combat ready units on alert to counter insurgencies, later also just to mobilize units in emergency for immediate frontline use. These alerts had Wagnerian codenames (Krimhild, Brünhild, Walküre, Rheingold etc). Walküre being the one used by the assassination attempt on Hitler, where the forces earmarked to counter a coup d'état were actually called upon by the plotters. This use led to Himmler (Reichsführer SS) to take over the position as Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres.
Landeschützen were territorial formations of the Ersatzheer grouped into Battalions, some of these Battalions were grouped into so called Landesschützen Regiments Stäbe z.b.V., some Battalions remained independent. Landesschützen were men not fully fit for frontline duties, often older men. They performed security tasks. These Landesschützen were also controlled by a permanent command structures, but in this case it was called a "Division z.b.V Nr..." or Landeschützendivisionstab. Eg. in Wehrkreis XVII one would find a Division z.b.V. 417 that consisted of Landesschützen units and also a Wach-Battalion Wien.
Security tasks were also performed by "Sicherungsbrigaden" and "Sicherungsdivisionen". Some - not all - of them can be traced back to Landesschützen-units operating outside of their home Wehrkreis behind the frontline guarding installations and performing anti partisan duties etc.
Cheers
Hans
Indeed, I the Divisions of the Replacement Army were the "Divisionen Nr...". To understand the system, remember that it was the staff that was the only permament structure. The men undergoing the training were there only passing through on their way to the Feldheer. So under a "Division Nr. ..", we should actually in the first place understand the command structure (staff) which controlled the various Ersatz- und Ausbildungseinheiten (the size of Regiments and/or Battalions) in the Wehrkreis. These training units itself were dispersed on various installations throughout the Wehrkreis. They were not combat formations. They however could be mobilized into combat ready units on alert to counter insurgencies, later also just to mobilize units in emergency for immediate frontline use. These alerts had Wagnerian codenames (Krimhild, Brünhild, Walküre, Rheingold etc). Walküre being the one used by the assassination attempt on Hitler, where the forces earmarked to counter a coup d'état were actually called upon by the plotters. This use led to Himmler (Reichsführer SS) to take over the position as Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres.
Landeschützen were territorial formations of the Ersatzheer grouped into Battalions, some of these Battalions were grouped into so called Landesschützen Regiments Stäbe z.b.V., some Battalions remained independent. Landesschützen were men not fully fit for frontline duties, often older men. They performed security tasks. These Landesschützen were also controlled by a permanent command structures, but in this case it was called a "Division z.b.V Nr..." or Landeschützendivisionstab. Eg. in Wehrkreis XVII one would find a Division z.b.V. 417 that consisted of Landesschützen units and also a Wach-Battalion Wien.
Security tasks were also performed by "Sicherungsbrigaden" and "Sicherungsdivisionen". Some - not all - of them can be traced back to Landesschützen-units operating outside of their home Wehrkreis behind the frontline guarding installations and performing anti partisan duties etc.
Cheers
Hans
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genstab
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Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
I was going to mention the other category not covered until Hans did so. The units simply called "___ Division" or "___Division zbV" were the division staffs, on a lower level than the Division Nr./Ersatz (Replacement) Divisions. They could however be upgraded to Ersatz Divisions.
Best regards,
Genstab
Where liberty dwells, there is my country.
Genstab
Where liberty dwells, there is my country.
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
When units such as 176, 180 and 190th were mobilized for combat in 1944, what parts stayed behind ? Stamm ? Ersatz ? Genesenden ? Did they all go to the front ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
thanks,
Mad Dog
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
From what I can gather from Tessin, after these units were mobilized and sent to the front as regular infantry divisions, the affected Wehrkreise normally then had to reconstitute the replacement and training units, usually using the same number and at the same location, since troops still had to be trained and send forward under the normal replacement system.
Cheers,
Doug Nash
Cheers,
Doug Nash
Abbott: This sure is a beautiful forest.
Costello: Too bad you can't see it for all those trees!
Costello: Too bad you can't see it for all those trees!
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
So you think the whole lot went to the front ? Desperate times-desperate measures, I guess.
I am ripping my hair out trying to track Division Nr.176 from the times it was sent to the front. Trying to get different sources to agree is terribly difficult.
Is there any book or source that lays out how one goes about tracking different units through the various microfilms ?
thanks,
Tom
I am ripping my hair out trying to track Division Nr.176 from the times it was sent to the front. Trying to get different sources to agree is terribly difficult.
Is there any book or source that lays out how one goes about tracking different units through the various microfilms ?
thanks,
Tom
Division Nr. 176
Well, here's what I can glean from Tessin - not much new here, but anyway ---
In Sep. 44, the division was "Mobilized" according to the Valkyrie proclamation while in Bielefeld - it moved to the front near Roermund where it was to undergo conversion to a field division structure while assigned to LXXXVIII Corps - as an infantry division, not as a Volks-Grenadier Division. Upon mobilization, it consisted of:
Stab Div. Nr. 176
Gren.Ers.und Ausb. Rgt 416 (3 battalions)
Gren.Ers.und Ausb. Rgt 426 (with 4 battalions)
Art. Ers. und Ausb.Rgt. 6 (with 3 Art. Abteilungen, consisting of 7 batteries and 2 cannon companies)
Heeres-Flakart. Ers. Abt. 276 (1 Flak-battery and 3 cannon companies)
Pionier Ers.Btl. 26 (staff and 1 company)
Pionier Ausb.Btl. 6 (Staff and 3 companies)
Construction Pionier Ers. und Ausb. Btl. 6 (staff and 1 company)
Observation Ers.und Ausb.Abt. 6 (staff and 4 companies)
Aufklaerungs (reconnaissance) Ers. und Ausb. ABtl. 15 (staff and 2 companies)
With supply troops, the total came to 10,637 men
At the end of Oct, the division began reorganization, and on 2 Nov 1944 it was re-designated as 176th Infantry Division, which consisted of the following:
Div. Staff
Gren.Rgts 1218, 1219, and 1220 (each w/ 2 battalions)
Art.Rgt. 1176 (w/ 4 battalions)
Div.Fues.Btl. 176
Pz.Jg.Abt. 1176
Signal Btl 1176
Pionier Btl. 1176
Parts of Div.Nr. 176 that weren't needed were sent back to Germany to resume their training role and were assigned to Div.Nr. 466.
The 176th Inf.Div. then fought along the Roer River from Nov. 1944 until March 1945 while assigned to the XII SS Corps. At the war's end, it was fighting near Duisburg while part of LXXIV Corps (Ruhr Pocket).
Hope this helps ----
In Sep. 44, the division was "Mobilized" according to the Valkyrie proclamation while in Bielefeld - it moved to the front near Roermund where it was to undergo conversion to a field division structure while assigned to LXXXVIII Corps - as an infantry division, not as a Volks-Grenadier Division. Upon mobilization, it consisted of:
Stab Div. Nr. 176
Gren.Ers.und Ausb. Rgt 416 (3 battalions)
Gren.Ers.und Ausb. Rgt 426 (with 4 battalions)
Art. Ers. und Ausb.Rgt. 6 (with 3 Art. Abteilungen, consisting of 7 batteries and 2 cannon companies)
Heeres-Flakart. Ers. Abt. 276 (1 Flak-battery and 3 cannon companies)
Pionier Ers.Btl. 26 (staff and 1 company)
Pionier Ausb.Btl. 6 (Staff and 3 companies)
Construction Pionier Ers. und Ausb. Btl. 6 (staff and 1 company)
Observation Ers.und Ausb.Abt. 6 (staff and 4 companies)
Aufklaerungs (reconnaissance) Ers. und Ausb. ABtl. 15 (staff and 2 companies)
With supply troops, the total came to 10,637 men
At the end of Oct, the division began reorganization, and on 2 Nov 1944 it was re-designated as 176th Infantry Division, which consisted of the following:
Div. Staff
Gren.Rgts 1218, 1219, and 1220 (each w/ 2 battalions)
Art.Rgt. 1176 (w/ 4 battalions)
Div.Fues.Btl. 176
Pz.Jg.Abt. 1176
Signal Btl 1176
Pionier Btl. 1176
Parts of Div.Nr. 176 that weren't needed were sent back to Germany to resume their training role and were assigned to Div.Nr. 466.
The 176th Inf.Div. then fought along the Roer River from Nov. 1944 until March 1945 while assigned to the XII SS Corps. At the war's end, it was fighting near Duisburg while part of LXXIV Corps (Ruhr Pocket).
Hope this helps ----
Abbott: This sure is a beautiful forest.
Costello: Too bad you can't see it for all those trees!
Costello: Too bad you can't see it for all those trees!
Re: Ersatz and Reserve division ?
Douglas,Doug Nash wrote:From what I can gather from Tessin, after these units were mobilized and sent to the front as regular infantry divisions, the affected Wehrkreise normally then had to reconstitute the replacement and training units, usually using the same number and at the same location, since troops still had to be trained and send forward under the normal replacement system.
Cheers,
Doug Nash
B I N G O !!
I couldn't have said it better !!
Thanks,
Your friend John !!