Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

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Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Piet Duits »

Hi there,

As of 1.6.1944, the 9. SS-Panz.DIv. had the following armored vehicles in use:

9. SS-Panz.Div.
3 Art.Beob.Wg. III
2 Panz. IV L/40
41 Panz. IV L/48
3 Panz.Bef.Wg. III L/42
3 Panz.Bef.Wg. IV
40 StuGesch. III Ausf. G L/48
6 Hummel
2 Munitionsträger Hummel
12 Wespe
4 Munitionsträger Wespe
11 SdKfz 222
5 SdKfz 223
2 SdKfz 231
4 SdKfz 232
1 SdKfz 261
1 SdKfz 247
57 SdKfz 250/1
3 SdKfz 250/2
16 SdKfz 250/3
13 SdKfz 250/5
8 SdKfz 250/7
15 SdKfz 250/9
3 SdKfz 250/10
49 SdKfz 251/1
6 SdKfz 251/2
23 SdKfz 251/3
23 SdKfz 251/4
1 SdKfz 251/6
31 SdKfz 251/7
4 SdKfz 251/8
14 SdKfz 251/9
1 SdKfz 251/10
1 SdKfz 251/11
1 SdKfz 251/16
1 SdKfz 252

Compared with the previous strength report (as of 15.5.44), the differences were:
Abgang 11 Fla-Panz. 38 (t) an I./ LSSAH, abgesandt am 16.5.44
Abgang 1 Fla-Panz. 38 (t) an I./ LSSAH, abgesandt am 25.5.44
Abgang 1 Panz. IV L/48 an H.Za. Oppeln (zur Heimatinstandsetzung) am 4.5.44
Abgang 1 Panz. IV L/48 an Kraftfahrtechn. Lehranstalt d. W-SS (zur Heimatinstandsetzung)
Abgang 1 SdKfz 222 an H.Pz.Nb.Za. Frankfurt (Oder) am 13.5.44 (zur Heimatinstandsetzung)


I hope this is of use to someone :[]
Source: BAMA RH 20-4/445
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Martin Block »

Great information, thank you for sharing :up: :up: :up:

Just a very small remark about the source you give. Shouldn't it be RH 21 4/455 (Pz.A.O.K. 4) because RH 20 4/445 is part of a KTB AOK 4 from 1943 if I'm reading the BA-MA online guide correctly??? Are the papers in the BA-MA mixed up or am I :D ?
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Piet Duits »

oops, you are correct Martin, it's indeed 21-4/455.
I am preparing a long reply to your questions from last weekend.

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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Rich »

Piet Duits wrote:oops, you are correct Martin, it's indeed 21-4/455.
I am preparing a long reply to your questions from last weekend.

Piet
Piet, what is a Panz. IV L/40? Is that supposed to be L/43?

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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Piet Duits »

Rich,

My information is based upon a list from 1941 or so, with a lot of later war models not yet in use. Nr. 30 on that list simply states 7,5 cm KwK L 40, so if that's correct, I am correct too. If it is not, well, I must be not too :D
Nr. 31 was free, and from experience and other examples I learned that that was the L/48 version.

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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Rich »

Piet Duits wrote:Rich,

My information is based upon a list from 1941 or so, with a lot of later war models not yet in use. Nr. 30 on that list simply states 7,5 cm KwK L 40, so if that's correct, I am correct too. If it is not, well, I must be not too :D
Nr. 31 was free, and from experience and other examples I learned that that was the L/48 version.

Piet
How truly odd, was that from a Panzerlage list or from a general equipment list? It looks like they are mashing the PaK 40 into the KwK designation then?
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Kelvin »

Hi, Piet, 9.SS only had four sdkfz 250/7, how can you get figure of 8 ? where is it depolyed ?
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Piet Duits »

Kelvin,

More interesting is to know why you think they had only four of such armored vehicles.
The numbers I posted above were what the division really had. There's also a SOLL-list, and there you can see what they were supposed to have.
When you compare the SOLL with the (standard) KStN's which could be used, it is clear that the SS-Panz.Aufkl.Abt. 9 used the older set of KStN instead of the 1.11.1943 set. And if you do that, the 8x 250/7 can be found in 2x KStN 1113 (gp.) as of 1.3.1942.

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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Kelvin »

Hi, Piet, my source based upon Mr Jeff Dugdale Waffen SS Panzer unit in Normandy OOB, there were two sdkfz 250/7 each in three and four kompanies of SS Pz Aufklarung abteilung 9. I look around this OOB, only find four such vehicles, so another four I cannot find. :(
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Martin Block »

Kelvin, if you had taken the care and the time to have a look at the K.St.N. 1113 (gp) - available for instance here http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/ in a very visual form - your question would have been completely unnecessary!
There were 2 versions of the Sd.Kfz. 250/7 available, one was the mortar carrier the other the ammo carrier.
So the 8 Sd.Kfz. 250/7 in Piet's list actually are 4 mortar carriers plus 4 ammo carriers.
BTW In the later version of the K.St.N. the ratio was reduced to 2 gun and 1 ammo carrier.

Martin Block


P.S.: While we are at it: Piet, the two Pz. IV listed by you as L 40 actually were Pz. IV L/43. Guess you took this "from the header of column 31 in the report of the 25. Pz.Div. dated 28.1.1944. Please note that the entry was added later by typewriter an is nothing but a typo. Just compare with the header of column 31 in the report of 1.1.1944 where you find two Pz. IV L 48 which makes much more sense :wink:
Last edited by Martin Block on Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Piet Duits »

Kelvin,

I suppose you have your assumptions based upon the information on page 104 of that book. The 2 8cm GrW were found in the III. (8cm GrW) Gruppe of the 4. schwerer Zug (KStN 1113 (gp.) v. 1.3.1942). There was 1x 250/7 for the Gruppenführer, 1x 250/7 for the Munition and 2x 250/7 for the 8cm GrW.
That makes... 4

Take a look around at http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Besides, and I have told you that before, do not pay too much attention to the organisation charts. The chart for the 2. SS-Panz.Div. as found on page 79 of that book has caused a lot of headache to me. The SS-Panz.Aufkl.Abt. 2 has the KStN 1162c listed, while the division never got any 250/9's.
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Martin Block »

Sorry, wrong post
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Kelvin »

Hello, Piet and Martin, thank for your data. And your link on KStn 1113 not only solve my problem on 9. SS and but also on my problem on 2. Pz division on Axis History Forum. Thank again.
About 2. SS Panzer division , Dugdale only mention two 8 cm mortar in third and fourth kompanie with le SPW, so I am not sure was it equipped with sdkfz 250/7.

Piet data on organization of 9. SS Panzer division mention only six sdkfz 251/2 mortar carriers, ( in PG regiment) but normally one of kompanie of Pioneer battalion was armored and was supposed to equipped with two sdkfz 251/2. Dugdale two books on Waffen SS Pz division # and 12.SS Panzer division did not clearly mention it had sdkfz 251/2. Is it organization chart wrong again :(

# Remark : Dugdale source on Waffen SS Panzer unit in Normandy only mention two 8 cm mortar possessed by Das Reich, Hohenstaufen, Frundsberg and Hitlerjugend with SPW, so not sure was sdkfz251/2 or not. His recent book on 12. SS Hitlerjugend also have same problem
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Kelvin »

Hello, Piet and Martin, thank for your data. And your link on KStn 1113 not only solve my problem on 9. SS and but also on my problem on 2. Pz division on Axis History Forum. Thank again.
About 2. SS Panzer division , Dugdale only mention two 8 cm mortar in third and fourth kompanie with le SPW, so I am not sure was it equipped with sdkfz 250/7.

Piet data on organization of 9. SS Panzer division mention only six sdkfz 251/2 mortar carriers, ( in PG regiment) but normally one of kompanie of Pioneer battalion was armored and was supposed to equipped with two sdkfz 251/2. Dugdale two books on Waffen SS Pz division # and 12.SS Panzer division did not clearly mention it had sdkfz 251/2. Is it organization chart wrong again :(

# Remark : Dugdale source on Waffen SS Panzer unit in Normandy only mention two 8 cm mortar possessed by Das Reich, Hohenstaufen, Frundsberg and Hitlerjugend with SPW, so not sure was sdkfz251/2 or not. His recent book on 12. SS Hitlerjugend also have same problem
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Re: Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

Post by Piet Duits »

Kelvin,

It does not have to be wrong.
The number of vehicles listed above are the real number of vehicles this particular division had.
The authorized strength for this date are 8, most probably devided with 6 in the Panz.Gren.Btl. (gp.) and the remaining 2 in the Panz.Pi.Kp.
I suppose the 2 missing vehicles were indeed kept out of this company.
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