Real organisation of the 9. SS-Panz.Div. (1.6.44)

[Kelvin]

Hi, if according to Dugdale book, all Waffen SS division 's sdkfz 251/2 in Pioneer battalion were missing but they have unknown SPW types. I cannot confirm it.

But 2. SS Das Reich really had four sdkfz 250/7 in Aufklarung abteilung ?

[Kelvin]

Hi, Piet, according to J. Dugdale Waffen SS Panzer unit in Normandy OOB, there were twelve 4-wheeled armored cars including sdkfz 222, 221 & 223 and six 8- wheeled armored cars including sdkfz 231 & 232. Quoted from P. 104

Your number in 8 wheeled armored car matched the number in 1/Pz AA 9 ( total six vehicles)but your number in 4-wheeled cars is sdkfz 222 ( 11 x vehicles) and sdkfz 221 ( 5 x vehicles) is bigger than Dugdale books ' 12 machines. Can your document show me how it distributed or where 's remainder gone ?

[Piet Duits]

Kelvin,

I would be more interested to know where Dugdale got his numbers from.
The math in itself is easy.
The authorized organisation of the Panzerspäh-Kompanie according to KStN 1162 has 12x SdKfz 222, 6x SdKfz 223, 3x SdKfz 231 and 3x SdKfz 232. That's the authorized organisation.
The number of available vehicles as of 1.6.1944 was 11x 222, 5x 223, 2x 231 and 4x 232 and NO 221.
Somehow Dugdale got his information which is different from what I know. I can't answer the question where he got his info from, and all I can do is question wether his numbers are reliable or not.

For example, the 2. Panzerspäh-Kompanie should have had 16x 250/9. They received 16, and lost 1 of them in the east. So, 15 remain'
Dugdale writes (including 13 SdKfz 250/9)
Yes, that's correct. He could have also written (including 2 SdKfz 250/9). They had 15. Period.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Piet , thank for your reply. Dugdale book p.97 has a actual organization chart on June 1 1944. 1/Pz AA 9 listed 18 2 cm gun and it mean 18 panzerspahwagen with 2 cm guns but did not list the type.

[Kelvin]

Hi there,

As of 1.6.1944, the 9. SS-Panz.DIv. had the following armored vehicles in use:

9. SS-Panz.Div.
3 Art.Beob.Wg. III
2 Panz. IV L/40
41 Panz. IV L/48
3 Panz.Bef.Wg. III L/42
3 Panz.Bef.Wg. IV
40 StuGesch. III Ausf. G L/48
6 Hummel
2 Munitionsträger Hummel
12 Wespe
4 Munitionsträger Wespe
11 SdKfz 222
5 SdKfz 223
2 SdKfz 231
4 SdKfz 232
1 SdKfz 261
1 SdKfz 247
57 SdKfz 250/1
3 SdKfz 250/2
16 SdKfz 250/3
13 SdKfz 250/5
8 SdKfz 250/7
15 SdKfz 250/9
3 SdKfz 250/10
49 SdKfz 251/1
6 SdKfz 251/2
23 SdKfz 251/3
23 SdKfz 251/4
1 SdKfz 251/6
31 SdKfz 251/7
4 SdKfz 251/8
14 SdKfz 251/9
1 SdKfz 251/10
1 SdKfz 251/11
1 SdKfz 251/16
1 SdKfz 252

Compared with the previous strength report (as of 15.5.44), the differences were:
Abgang 11 Fla-Panz. 38 (t) an I./ LSSAH, abgesandt am 16.5.44
Abgang 1 Fla-Panz. 38 (t) an I./ LSSAH, abgesandt am 25.5.44
Abgang 1 Panz. IV L/48 an H.Za. Oppeln (zur Heimatinstandsetzung) am 4.5.44
Abgang 1 Panz. IV L/48 an Kraftfahrtechn. Lehranstalt d. W-SS (zur Heimatinstandsetzung)
Abgang 1 SdKfz 222 an H.Pz.Nb.Za. Frankfurt (Oder) am 13.5.44 (zur Heimatinstandsetzung)


I hope this is of use to someone
Source: BAMA RH 20-4/445

Hello, Piet, once again from J Dugdale book Waffen SS panzer units in Normandy 1944 : there were 8 x 251/9 in III./SS Pz.Gren. Rgt. 20 and 4 x 251/9 in 5./SS Pz.A.A. 9 on June 1 1944 (P.103). You data listed 14 x 251/9, how are they distributed and two more out of Dugdale book deployed in other unit ?

[Piet Duits]

Kelvin,

6 251/9's in the schw. Kp./ SS-Panz.Aufkl.Abt. 9, instead of 4. The le. Panz.Aufkl.Kp. were build according to the 1.3.1942 KStN 1113 (gp.), instead of the later version which had the 250/8.

By the way, the list I provided can be discussed if you want. You can't win however, because I have the chassisnumbers for the vehicles too.

[Kelvin]

Hello, Piet, I suggest that Dugdale book listed these figures : 4 x sd.kfz.251/9 in 5./SS Pz.A.A. 9 is based upon P.97 OB chart which show 4 x 7.5 cm gun.

You always said that OB chart is somewhat untrustful. You have detailed vehicles breakdown, you could know OB chart is wrong. Recently, I also find some OB chart has some problem. Using Dugdale book as example again

In chapter about 2.SS Das Reich division : OB chart on June 3 1944 ( page 79) tell me that III./SS Pz.Gren Rgt 4 Der Fuhrer had 87 mSPW and 11 m Pz Fu. And its weapon listed 6 x 8 cm mortar symbol and empty in 7.5 cm gun and author listed 6 x sd.kfz.251/2 in page 82 description. Then in OB chart on July 1 1944 (page 88) tell me that this unit also had 87 mSPW and 11 m Pz Fu but this time weapon had 6 x 8 cm mortar, 6 x mortar of unknown cablier and 12 x 7.5 cm gun symbol. And author description (page 92) listed 12 x sd.kfz.251/2 and 12 x sd.kfz.251/9.
The problem is this unit SPW stock remained unchanged between June 3 and July 1 1944 and I find no delivery of SPW to them during June. But on July 1 1944, III./SS.Pz.Gren.Rgt 4 Der Fuhrer suddenly had additional 6 x 251/2 and 12 x 251/9. So the drawer of OB chart for June 3 1944 maybe omissed these types of vehicles. Of course, in times of combat, it hardly blamed them for that and it mislead high command on their strength. Also, I don't have this unit detailed SPW breakdown, all these above is based upon my guess.

Kelvin

[Kelvin]

Hi, Piet, your document includes the real organization of 10.SS Panzer division Frundsberg since they were sister units before Aug 1944 ? If can find in NARA, would you mind telling me where it located ? I am interested in actual organization of SS.Pz.AA.10 on Jume 1 1944.

[Kelvin]

Kelvin,

6 251/9's in the schw. Kp./ SS-Panz.Aufkl.Abt. 9, instead of 4. The le. Panz.Aufkl.Kp. were build according to the 1.3.1942 KStN 1113 (gp.), instead of the later version which had the 250/8.

By the way, the list I provided can be discussed if you want. You can't win however, because I have the chassisnumbers for the vehicles too.

Hi, Piet, recently I recheck my Waffen SS file like OOB chart, maybe I have different distribution of 251/9 in 9 SS Hohenstaufen division :
Your data list 14 x 251/9 on hand for 9SS.
Based upon OOB chart
10 x 251/9 in III./Pz.Gren.Rgt.
1. komanpie : 1 x 251/9
2. kompanie : 2 x 251/9
3. kompanie : 2 x 251/9
4. Skompanie : 5 x 251/9 ,instead of 3 in Dugdale book, it look like 3, but when I enlarge it and think possibly 5

5./SS Pz.Aufk.Abt. 9 : 4 x 251/9 ( from the docment really look like 4, chance is 90%)

Did your document had detailed breakdown by unit like OOB chart ?

[Piet Duits]

Kelvin,

The authorized number was 18x 251/9, on 1.6.1944 they had 14 on hand.
Just like on 30.4.1944 and 15.5.1944.

No, the numbers are not split up in subunits.

The actual organisation of the 10. SS was very simular to the 9. SS, also using the old 1941 and 1942 KStN for the majority of their units. How do I know? Well, by comparing numbers from KStN.
Drop me an e-mail and I will provide you with some data.

Piet
[email protected]

[Kelvin]

I heard that 9. SS Panzer division was authorized to have Luchs Aufklarungpanzer but actually these rare vehicles were sent to 9. Panzer division.

[Martin Block]

Not authorized but just temporary attached. Read this:
viewtopic.php?p=192874#p192874

Martin Block

[Kelvin]

Hi, Martin, thank for your link.

[Kelvin]

Hi, I find one docment on organization of 9.SS Pz Rgt on June 28 1944, in its I Battalion, there were four kompanies with 17 Panther each and three in HQ and another two in other areas, total 73 Panther, was it actual organization on that day or just authorized figures ?

[Alanmccoubrey]

My source of SS based on English Premier League Dugdale band armored forces in Normandy, two sdkfz two hundred and fifty sevenths every three or four kompanies the SS Pz location Aufklarung abteilung9. I looked around the the OOB

Mark, you seem to be having some real difficulties with translation there.