25th Panzergrenadier Division

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Kelvin
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25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Kelvin »

HI Anyone have combat ready panzer strength of 25th Panzergrenadier Division during NOrdwind Offensive either on 01st January 1945 or 08th January 1945. I know she possess Panther and PzIV but no data on combat ready status , anyone can help
Rev Rico
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Rev Rico »

I asked last year and someone posted:

Here are figures for the 25. Panzergrenadier-Division on 30 December 1944

Panzer-Abteilung 5
Panthers=6
Jagdpanzer IVs=5
Möbelwagens=3
Bergepanthers=2
SdKfz 251=1

In transit were 30 Panthers, 5 Jagdpanzer IVs (Panzer IV/70(V) and 1 SdKfz 251

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 25
14 StuG IIIs
2 Bergepanzer IIIs
3 7.5cm Pak 40s towed

In transit were 17 StuG IIIs, 12 Jagdpanzer IVs (Panzer IV/70(V), 1 SdKfz 251 and 9 7.5cm Pak 40s towed

Hope that helps,
Bob
Eduard
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Eduard »

Well 25th panzer grenadiere division is a favorite of mine.

For a PG division it was given tanks not found in any other common army panzer grenadiere division: that is tanks like the Panther.


But I'm interested in the second half of 1944. Did the division inform of their status on July, august, september 1944? That is just during and afterwards of the soviet summer offensive?

Thanks
Martin Block
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25. Pz.Gren.Div. July to December 1944

Post by Martin Block »

No, these reports do not exist because there was practically nothing left to report about!

On 23.7.1944 OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. filed the following note about the 'Stärke der Restteile der 25. Pz.Gren.Div.':

48 Offiziere
22 Beamte
302 Unteroffiziere
1048 Mannschaften
135 Hiwis
115 Kraftfahrzeuge (motor vehicles of all kinds)
286 Pferde und 89 Fahrzeuge (horses and horse drawn vehicles)

Any motorized elements were to be used for a Pz.Brig. (107) and any horse drawn elements could be used for divisions of the 29. Welle. It was suggested to disband the division.

But then on 31.8.1944 OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. issued the order to raise a new 25. Pz.Gren.Div. (Kampfgruppe) until 1.10.1944 using among others the very few remaining elements of the original division. However, lack of personnel and material delayed the formation until on 4.11.1944 the incorporation of Pz.Brig. 107 into the division was ordered.

As far as I know the first available status report for the new 25. Pz.Gren.Div. (Kampfgruppe) is that of 21.11.1944 which consists only of the 'Meldung personelle und materielle Lage'. Unfortunately the 'Kriegsgliederung' which should also be part of such a report is missing in the archives.

The next complete report then is the one as of 1.12.1944. On this date the division was 1250 men short of its authorized strength of 6456, including 739 sick and slightly wounded. Since 10.11.1944 it had lost 181 KIA, 517 WIA, 874 MIA, 147 seriously ill and 98 for other reasons. During the same time only 119 replacements had arrived.

On 1.12.1944 the Division consisted of

Div.Stab with Pz.Späh-Zug [at least 2 Sd.Kfz. 222]

Stab Pz.Gren.Rgt. 35 with Stabskp.
13.(I.G.) Kp. (motorized; towed heavy infantry guns)
14.(Pi.) Kp. (motorized; machine guns, medium mortars, flame throwers)
15.(Fla.) Kp. (motorized; towed 2cm Flak)
Stab I./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 35 with Versorg.Kp.
1.-3. Pz.Gren.Kp. (motorized; machine guns and medium mortars)
4.(s.) Pz.Gren.Kp. (motorized; machine guns, heavy mortars and 2cm Flak guns)
Stab II./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 35 with Versorg.Kp.
5.-7. Pz.Gren.Kp. (on bicycles; machine guns and medium mortars)
8.(s.) Pz.Gren.Kp. (motorized; machine guns, heavy mortars and 2cm Flak guns)
No III. Btl.

Stab Pz.Gren.Rgt. 119 with Stabskp.
Stab I./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 119 with Versorg.Kp.
1.-3. Pz.Gren.Kp. (armored; various types of m.SPW including several 251/9 and 251/21)
4.(s.) Pz.Gren.Kp. (armored; various types of m.SPW including several 251/9)
No II., no III. Btl., no regimental weapons companies.

Stab Panzer-Abt. 5 with Stabskp. (including a 'Möbelwagen' platoon)
1. - 3. Kp. (Panther)
4. Kp. (Pz. IV/70(V))
Pz.Werkstatt-Zug
Versorg.Kp.

Stab Panzerjäger-Abt. 5 with Stabskp.
1. + 2. Kp. (StuG III)
3. Kp. (towed a/t guns)
Versorg.Kp.

Stab Art.Abt. I./25 with Stabsbttr.
1. - 3. Bttr. (motorized; towed 10,5cm howitzers)
No Art.Rgt.Stab, no II. and III. Abt.

1./Pi.Btl. 25 (motorized; machine guns, medium mortars, flame throwers)
3./Pi.Btl. 25 (partially armored (1 platoon); machine guns, flame throwers)
No Btl.Stab, no 2. Kp.

Pz.Nachr.Kp. 25
Kraftfahr-Kp. (120 to) 25
Werkstatt-Kp. 2./25

San.Kp. 2./25 with 2 Kr.Kw. (ambulanc) platoons
Feldpostamt 25

The Armor status was given as
Stu.Gesch.: authorized 31 / operational 7 / in short term repair 5
Pz. III: authorized 3 / operational 1 / in short term repair 1 [These actually were no 'real' Pz. III but Bergepz. III]
Pz. IV: authorized 15 [= 11 Pz. IV/70(V) + 4 Flakpz. IV] / operational 2 / in short term repair 7
Pz. V: authorized 37 [= 36 Pz. V + 1 Bergepz. V] / operational 5 / in short term repair 12
Schtz.Pz., Pz.Späh-Wg.: authorized 172 / operational 110 / in short term repair 27
Other heavy weapons available were
s.Pak: authorized 12 / operational 3 / in short term repair 0
Art.Gesch.: authorized 12 / operational 9 / in short term repair 2

One has to keep in mind that German monthly status reports normally do not include vehicles in long term repair, so the totals most likely were a little higher in some cases.
Most of the armored vehicles (except for the StuG III and Bergepz. III) belonged to the former Pz.Brig. 107. Only 3 new leichte Pz.Späh-Wagen and 11 new m.SPW had been delivered to the division during Oct/Nov 1944.

Martin Block
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Dubliner »

Thanks you Martin for the post...
I have the German 25.Pz.Gren.Div history and the first volume of the 5.Pz.Abt history, but I still working on learning German
Eduard
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Eduard »

Many thanks Martin,


Maybe you have similar information: restteile from other units, divisions freom the destroyed army group center in July 1944.

I am most interested in 78th sturm, 18th Panzer grenadier, feldhernalle... but any other would be very interesting to know.

Thanks again

Eduard
Martin Block
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Martin Block »

Eduard,

what I have is

"Stärke der Restteile der 18. Pz.Gren.Div." as reported on 23.7.1944
40 Offiziere
20 Beamte
450 Unteroffiziere
1537 Mannschaften
93 Hiwis
100 Kraftfahrzeuge (motor vehicles of all kinds)
293 Pferde und 68 Fahrzeuge (horses and horse drawn vehicles)

and

"Personelle Lage der Kampfgruppe Pz.Gren.Div. FHH Stand 28.7.1944"
Div.Stab einschliesslich Feldgendarmerie 71 Mann
Gren.Rgt. = 430 Mann
Füs.Rgt. = 244 Mann
Art.Rgt. = 445 Mann
Flak-Abt. = 329 Mann
Pz.Jg. = 224 Mann
Pi. = 69 Mann
Nachr.Abt. = 98 Mann
Versorg.Tr. = 1272 Mann
Insgesamt = 2845 Mann (all ranks)

In this case I do not have any information about vehicles etc.

Martin Block
Kelvin
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Kelvin »

Hi Martin, I got Dec 01st monthly report on 25th Panzergrenadier Division but a little bit different with your report :

Item/authorized/ operational/short term repair/long term repair
Panther /37/5/12/0
StuG/33/7/5/0
Jagdpanzer IV / 15/2/7/0
Bergepanzer III/3/1/1/0
Mobelwagen/4/1/2/1
Bergepanther 4/3/1/0
SPW/160/108/26/1
Pz Spah Wg/6/2/1/0
manpower authorized is 6456 actual is 5206 men

Kelvin
Martin Block
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Martin Block »

Do you have a copy of the original report in front of you or are you quoting figures from someones book?

Martin Block
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division and others

Post by Eduard »

Many thanks again Martin,

Do you know if did exist the same records from lesser units like Stugbrigades ??

I'm intrigued about the fate of 245th Stug abt (bgde) that fateful summer. I understand it was destroyed but a member was given the KC on August.


Eduard
Martin Block
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Martin Block »

Eduard,

as far as I can tell unfortunately only very, very few monthly status reports for any of the Stu.Gesch.Brig. did survive the war. You have to dig yourself through the 'Anlagen' of war diaries on Heeresgruppen, Armee, Korps level as far as they available and you might find some here and there. I personally have hardly anything documented about the H.Stu.Gesch.Brig. 245 in the summer of 1944.
On 30.6.1944 the brigade was listed having 22 StuG III (14 operational) and 6 StuH (4 operational). 3 more StuG III were reported as being on the way to the unit. On 28.7.1944 the brigade reported having still 16 officers, 146 NCOs and 213 other ranks left but practically no military hardware was available anymore ("höchstens Reste"). It was suggested to send the personnel back to Germany and disband the unit. Already on the next day OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. issued an order accordingly. All remaining equipment was to be handed over to H.Stu.Gesch.Brig. 667 and the personnel was to return to Burg near Magdeburg. Upon arrival there the brigade would be disbanded. Finally on 6.8.1944 OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. officially declared the brigade as disbanded.

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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Richard Schoutissen »

Maybe the next link is interesting for one of you . . .

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=29069
Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 25th Panzergrenadier Division

Post by Alanmccoubrey »

I have been looking at the Meldung and Gliederung dated 1st March and 1st April 1945 for 25 PGD and am a little confused.
On 1st April Pz Abt 5 is shon as having five companies, the three Panther Companies, the Jagdpanzer IV Company and a fifth which has no vehicle type noted, no LMG numbers noted within the box but there is an "S" there and a "10" written under the box.

Can anyone tell me what this fifth company is ?

Also in the 1st April Gliederung the Pz.Jgr.Abt.25 is shown with an extra Company(or perhaps Platoon as the rhomboid is not full size) which is marked with FKL insode the box and 3 LMGs indicated. Under the box is a "2" indicating the number of vehicles.

Again, can anyone tell me what this ecctra company/platoon is and what it had ? Surely not Funklenk, is it ?
Alan
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