2.Panzer-Division Armored Car Numbering

[Tanker Mike]

Hello,

The 2.Panzer-Division refitted in the fall of 1944 using the November 1944 KStN tables. The armored cars that were in the 1.Kompanie, were then moved to two PSW zugs in Stabskompanie of PanzerAufklarungs-Abteilung 2.

What kind of numbering system did they use for those two PSW zugs?

Thanks,
Mike

[Hans Weber]

Tanker

2nd PD refitted in fall 44 using the KstN 1.4.44 tables (afaik no PD used the Nov. set during refitting).

Besides two brand new 234/1, all the other PSW were totally worn out Normandy survivors still sporting the old numberings they got in spring 44. The two new cars probably didn't have any numbers at all.

The 11 x 234/2 thus had numbers from 111 to 1122 (first digit for 1. Komp. second and third digit for troop 1-12 and last digit for vhc 1 or 2). Combat unit was the Troop, not Platoon. Troop had 2 cars. In the Bob, AA 2 had 6 troops of two vhc each. 5 troops of 234/2 and one of 234/1. Can't tell you which Pumas out of the 24 iussed in spring 44 made it, but Puma "1102" was destroyed and photographed near the tip of the German penetration. One additonal Puma was used by the Cp Ldr, numbering not known.

The three old 233 still sported their old numbers, they were from former 5. Zug, thus 151 to 156 is possible.
The two 232 were from former 6. Zug, but I don't have proof they were numbered at all.

During the BoB, both the 233 and the 232 were in two troops of three vhcs, not two. I suspect that the one 250/9 the unit had stood in for the missing 232. Also here, no number on the 250/9 confirmed.

The Nachrichtenzug used 3x 251/3 and one 251/1 standing in for a 251/11 as phone SPW and the big boss probably had a 250/3 at his disposal. No numbers confirmed.

HTH
Cheers
Hans

[Piet Duits]

Mike,

Like Hans already wrote, the Panz.Div. refitting in the fall of 44 still used the KStN for the Panz.Div. 44 (ranging from 1.4.44 for the larger part of the divisions to 1.6.44 of some elements).
The 1.11.44 set of KStN were not used untill 1945.
Some of these KStN dated 1.11.44 were the result of field experiences (well, this was no exception). Like the Panz.Gren.Kp. (on bicycles) (1114 b (f.G.) as of 1.11.44): a direct result of what happened in the field.

[Tanker Mike]

2nd PD refitted in fall 44 using the KstN 1.4.44 tables (afaik no PD used the Nov. set during refitting).

First off, thanks Hans and Piet for the information. As is often the case, answers to questions lead to more questions!

So, how did theoretical KStN 1109(gp)(fG) Stab und Stbs. Kp. / Pz. Aufkl. Abt. (gp) (frei) dated 1.04.44 differ from the dated 1.11.44?

KStN 1109(gp)(fG) Stab und Stbs. Kp. / Pz. Aufkl. Abt. (gp) (frei)1.11.44

Stab
4 Kettenkrad, 1 VW(82), 2 SPW(251/3), 1 SPW(251/8

Stabskompanie
Gruppe-Führer: 2 Kettenkrad, 2 VW(82), 1 PSW(234/1)

1.Zug(Nachrichten):
Zugtrupp: 1 VW(82), 1 SPW(251/3)
mittlerer Feldkabeltrupp(x2): 1 SPW(251/11)
mittlerer Funktrupp-80Mw(x4): 1 SPW(251/3)

2.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
1.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
2.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
3.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
4.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)

3.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
5.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
6.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
7.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)



Mike

[Hans Weber]

Hello

It's mainly the ratio in 234/1 and 234/3 (13 234/1 and 3 234/3 = 16 PSW in April as opposed to 8 234/1 and 7 234/3 = 15 PSW in Nov). Some smaller differences, too.

Stab und Stbs. Kp. / Pz. Aufkl. Abt. (gp) (frei)1.4.44

Stab
4 Kettenkrad, 1 VW(82), 2 SPW(251/3), 1 SPW(251/8

Stabskompanie
Gruppe-Führer: 2 Kettenkrad, 2 VW(82), 1 PSW(234/1)

1.Zug(Nachrichten):
Zugtrupp: 1 VW(82), 1 SPW(251/3)
mittlerer Feldkabeltrupp(x2): 1 SPW(251/11)
mittlerer Funktrupp-80Mw(x4): 1 SPW(251/3)

2.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
1.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
2.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
3.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)

3.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
4.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
5.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
6.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)

schwere Kan Gruppe: 3 PSW(234/3)

Please note the Stabskompanie only had one Pkw, not two:

KStN 1109(gp)(fG) Stab und Stbs. Kp. / Pz. Aufkl. Abt. (gp) (frei)1.11.44

Stab
4 Kettenkrad, 1 VW(82), 2 SPW(251/3), 1 SPW(251/8

Stabskompanie
Gruppe-Führer: 2 Kettenkrad, 1 VW(82), 1 PSW(234/1)

1.Zug(Nachrichten):
Zugtrupp: 1 VW(82), 1 SPW(251/3)
mittlerer Feldkabeltrupp(x2): 1 SPW(251/11)
mittlerer Funktrupp-80Mw(x4): 1 SPW(251/3)

2.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
1.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
2.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
3.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
4.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)

3.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
5.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
6.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
7.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)

Cheers
Hans

[Tanker Mike]

Please note the Stabskompanie only had one Pkw, not two. 2nd PD refitted in fall 44 using the KstN 1.4.44 tables (afaik no PD used the Nov. set during refitting).

Hans,

Thanks for the correction. Regarding the 2.Panzer Panther-Kompanies, they had 14 Panthers per kompanie at the start of the Battle of Bulge. But KStN 1177(fG) dated 1.4.44 has 17 Panthers per kompanie. So, did the 2.Panzer use a different KStN to rebuild in the Fall of 1944 or did it use the 1.4.44 KStN but were only authorised 4 Panthers per platoon?

All the best,
Mike

[V. Andries]

Hi all,

Interesting thread.

So, did the 2.Panzer use a different KStN to rebuild in the Fall of 1944 or did it use the 1.4.44 KStN but were only authorised 4 Panthers per platoon?

It would still have been the same KStN, but special reduced Soll-strengths were established for the refitting of the Panzer-Divisions in the West during Autumn 1944. 2. Panzer-Div. was to have 60 Panther: 14 per company, 2 at Bn HQ and 2 at Regt HQ.

kind regards,

Andries

[Tanker Mike]

It would still have been the same KStN, but special reduced Soll-strengths were established for the refitting of the Panzer-Divisions in the West during Autumn 1944. 2. Panzer-Div. was to have 60 Panther: 14 per company, 2 at Bn HQ and 2 at Regt HQ.

Dugdale's book say 60 Panthers in the I./Abteilung but he has 4 Panthers in the Battalion HQ, 56 in the 4 companies and 4 Panthers in Regiment HQ for an overall total of 64 Panthers on 16th of December, 1944.

All the best,
Mike

[V. Andries]

Mike,

Yes, the deliveries of 56 Panthers during the first two weeks of December meant that Pz.Regt. 3 eventually disposed over four Panthers more than established, as it still had a total of 8 Panthers at its disposal before the deliveries arrived. I guess every unit would have been happy with even the smallest extra.

[Tanker Mike]

As I drive this thread further off the original subject...

The 2.Kompanie in the 2.Panzer-Division during the Battle of the Bulge was a leichte Panzer-Aufklärungskompanie (gepanzert) (freie Gliederung).
How did the November 1943 KStN differ from the April 1944 KStN?

K.St.N.1113 (gp.)(1.11.1943)

Kompanietrupp: 2 Kraftrade, 2 KK, 1 VW(82),
1 SPW(250/1), 2 SPW(250/3)

1.Zug:
Zugtrupp: 1 SPW(250/1), 1 SPW(250/ )
Gruppen(x3): 2 SPW(250/1)

2.Zug/3.Zug:
Same as the 1.Zug

Granatwerfer Gruppe:
1 SPW(250/1), 2 SPW(250/7-81c.m), 1 SPW(250/1-munitions)


Thanks,
Mike

[Kelvin]

Apart from panzer, 2. Pz division also had StuG III in its second battalion in Pz Rgt and Pzjager abteilung, three komapanie in each abteilung ?

[Tanker Mike]

Apart from panzer, 2. Pz division also had StuG III in its second battalion in Pz Rgt and Pzjager abteilung, three komapanie in each abteilung ?

For Wacht Am Rhein, the 2nd Panzer Battalion had four companies, two with 14 PzIVs in each company and two with 14 StuGs in each company. However, one of the StuG IIIs was destroyed in transit. Although the 2nd Pz. Bat. was authorised four PzIVs in the HQ there were no PzIVs or StuGs in the Battalion HQ.

The PzJg Abteilung had three companies. The first two had 10 StuG IIIs in each company and one company with 12 PaK 40 towed guns. The HQ had two StuG IIIs and one PzJg IV.