German To&Es in Normandy, '44

German unit histories, lineages, OoBs, ToEs, commanders, fieldpost numbers, organization, etc.

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Hans Weber
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Post by Hans Weber » Wed May 24, 2006 9:28 am

OK, I will, however, pour me a cup of tea first :wink:
Cheers
Hans

Hans Weber
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Post by Hans Weber » Wed May 24, 2006 12:03 pm

Hello

SS-Pz. Aufklärungsabteilung 12, 1st June 1944

Stab, Nachrichtenzug, Kanonenzug

1./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 12 (Panzerspähkompanie)
2./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 12 (Panzerspähkompanie
3./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 12 (Aufklärungskompanie)
4./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 12 (Aufklärungskompanie)
5./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 12 (schwere Kompanie)
6./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 12 (Versorgungskompanie)


Stab: 2 x 250/2

Nachrichtenzug: 9 x 250/2, 3x 250/3
Kanonenzug: 6 x 251 mounting a KwK of unknown calibre (captured gun or - most probably - a standard 7,5cm KwK possible, thus 251/9)


1. Panzerspähkompanie: 3 x 231, 2 x 232 (Fu), 6 x 223 (Fu), 12 x 222 were missing, never delivered. 1 x 232 (Fu) probably permanent breakdown
2. Panzerspähkompanie: 15 x 250/9, 7 x 250/5 (missing one 250/9 and 2x 250/5 never delivered)
3. Aufklärungskompanie: 37 le SPW: 28 x 250/1, 2 x 250/3, 4 x 250/7, 3 x 250/10 (it is very likely that these just mounted Italian 2cm KwK not capable of cyclic fire due to loading clips missing instead of 3,7cm Pak's)
4. Aufklärungskompanie: same as 3. Aufklärungskompanie,
5. schwere Kompanie: 1 x 250/10 (or conversion, see above), 17 m SPW, distributed as 3 x 251/1 (?), 2 x 251/2, 6 x 251/7, 6 x 251/9. The Kompanie had a Gruppe Führer, a le IG-Zug, a Pionier-Zug, a Pz. Jg.-Zug and a Kwk Zug. Add this KwK Zug also in the above post on PLD.


Cheers
Hans

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smaug
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Post by smaug » Sat May 27, 2006 12:01 pm

Thanks for that, Hans

Some things i have to ask,

On 30 Okt 43, The 12SSHJ got their orders for the Umgliederung,
this came with a set of KStN,s as anlage 2.
Most of them would date 1.3.43 or 1.5.43 and older.
However there came a new one dated 1.11.43,
Would this mean that they used the latter, or did they have to stick with the ones mentioned earlyer ?

I mean , if the orders came on 30 Okt., why not give them the 1.11 KStN's
looking at the date,s that is.

Thanks in advance
Henk

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Post by Hans Weber » Sun May 28, 2006 8:48 am

Hello

The order dated 30th October 1943 did not use the new KStN 1st Nov. 1943. In the rare cases KStN with the latter date were used, the original order was corrected later. You see this on the document published in Meyer. In December 1943, the Meldung simply states that numbers were subject to future changes, because the new KStN were still missing. The reference is to the KStN for the Panzer Division needed to make the cange from Panzergrenadier-Division and I think at this time, the division didn't even have a complete set of the obsolete ones listed on the document called Anhang 2 (which includes for the most part even older KStN). In the Meldung dated 5th Feb. 1944, there is a note that for calculating the Soll for the Kraftfahrzeuge, the new KStN had finally been adopted (dated here as 1st Dec. 1943). Still the percentage of the Soll was calculated with 75% = 100%. A month later the new Kfz and Waffen Soll of the SS-FHA was adopted and the percentage reference was 100% = 100% (Soll SS FHA). So we see an adaption of the KstN by the SS-FHA.

There were other living fossils: the Aufklärungskompanie within the Pz Gren Rgt disappeared from official Gliederungen when the Umstellung auf Panzer Division occured. In reality, the unit sill operated at D-Day.

It can be frustrating to get at the real situation, because also official documents are not 100% accurate.

I noticed that I mixed up 251/2 and 251/3 in the above posts. The 251/2 (Gw) in schwere Kp is a type 44 phenomen. The units mentioned above should read 251/3 (Fu).

Cheers
Hans

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smaug
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Post by smaug » Sun May 28, 2006 10:15 am

Thank you for this excelent explanation,
I gues you ( and Leo of course) are becomming the "Yoda's" of KStN's :)

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Re:

Post by Kelvin » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:50 am

Hans Weber wrote:Hello

Pz. Aufklärungsabteilung 130, 1st June 1944

Stab, Nachrichtenzug

1./Pz. ALA 130 (Panzerspähkompanie)
2./Pz, ALA 130 (Panzerspähkompanie
3./Pz. ALA 130 (Aufklärungskompanie)
4./Pz. ALA 130 (Aufklärungskompanie)
5./Pz. ALA 130 (schwere Kompanie)
6./Pz. ALA 130 (Versorgungskompanie)


Stab: 2 x 250/2, 1 x 251/8

Nachrichtenzug: 2 x 250/10, 7 x m SPW (5 x 251/2, 2 x 251/11)

1. Panzerspähkompanie: 26 x 234/2
2. Panzerspähkompanie: 16 x 250/9, 9 x 250/5
3. Aufklärungskompanie: 28 le SPW, ie 22 x 250/1, 2 x 250/2, 4 x 250/7
4. Aufklärungskompanie: same as 3. Aufklärungskompanie
5. schwere Kompanie: 1 x 250/10, 25 m SPW, ie 6 x 251/1, 2 x 251/2, 7 x 251/7, 6 x 251/9, 4 x 251/10. The Kompanie had a Gruppe Führer, a le IG-Zug, a Pionier-Zug and a Pz. Jg.-Zug.


Unit was at full strength in manpower. The three 250/8 per Aufklärungskompanie were for not delivered, which is however not unusual. If the 250/10 still carried a 3,7cm Pak can not be said. They were however most probably delivered as such to the predecessor of Pz. Aufklärungsabteilung 130.

The unit had on the 6th July incurred in losses of 6.5% in manpower.
material no longer on strength:

1./Pz. ALA 130: 4 x 234/2
2./Pz. ALA 130: 4 x 250/9
3./Pz. ALA 130: no data on SPW's, lost 23 le MG
4./Pz. ALA 130: no data on SPW's, lost 16 le MG
5./Pz. ALA 130: no exact data on SPW, at least one 251/9, one 250/10 or 251/10, 13 le MG

Now Henk, you really want to know about SS-AA 12?

Cheers
Hans
Hello, Hans, normally, 5/Aufklarung abteilung were not authorized two sdkfz 251/2 and I think it should be two 251/3 Funk SPW

Regarding stab, I think it should be two 250/3 Funk SPW , not 250/2

About Nachrichtenzug, it should be five 251/3 and two 251/11 , not five 251/2 mortar carrier

5. Kompanie had four 251/10, how can they distributed, actual figure on that day ?

Kelvin

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Re: German To&Es in Normandy, '44

Post by Hans Weber » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:49 am

I noticed that I mixed up 251/2 and 251/3 in the above posts. The 251/2 (Gw) in schwere Kp is a type 44 phenomen. The units mentioned above should read 251/3 (Fu).
Cheers
Hans

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Piet Duits
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9. and 10. SS

Post by Piet Duits » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:04 am

Hi all,

The 9. and 10. SS-Panzer-DIvisionen were mostly build around the mid 1943 and older KStN when they arrived from the eastern front in mid june 1944.
I have reports from the 4. Panzerarmee (to which both divisions belonged to until they were transfered to the Western Front) which shows the real and authorized numbers of armored vehicles, and that made it possible for me to figure this out.

But that's not all.
Besides having my doubts about the Kriegsgliederungen and the Meldungen (they both contain a lot of errors), there were other factors.
Was a specific unit build according to this or that KStN, then the KStN itself could have had changes here and there. Such as a leichte Pkw instead of a Kettenkrad., or an SdKfz 250/10 instead of the 251/10.
Without the raising orders and other relevant orders, it's still a wild guess on how a unit was really build.

It's still very, very interesting :-)
Nur für den Dienstgebrauch

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Re: German To&Es in Normandy, '44

Post by Kelvin » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:11 am

Hans Weber wrote:
I noticed that I mixed up 251/2 and 251/3 in the above posts. The 251/2 (Gw) in schwere Kp is a type 44 phenomen. The units mentioned above should read 251/3 (Fu).
Cheers
Hans
5/Aufklarung abteilung 1944 type were authorized six sdkfz 251/2 mortar carriers and six 251/9 gun carrier and 7.5 cm IG and Pak were withdrawn. Based on your data on 2. Pz division, it still on 1943 type organization and normally it has one or two 251/3 Funk, so I suggest that both 251/2 were also 251/3 but I don't exclude it in the poccess of change from 1943 to 1944 type, so two 251/2 were issued to 2 Pz division initially but 251/3 Funk is must, so question mark on two 251/2 or two 251/3 ? Someone have doucment to prove it ?

Apart from this , all 250/2 and 251/2 in other subunit of Aufklfarung abteilung after your doubt check, all is 250/3 and 251/3 funk, right ?

Kelvin

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Re: German To&Es in Normandy, '44

Post by Kelvin » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:22 pm

In accordance with Kamen Nevenkin Fire Brigade , 3. and 4./ Pz.A.LA. 130 were Aufklarung kompanes (sd.kfz.251), instead of leAufklarung kompanie(sd.kfz.250).Which one is correct ?

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Re: German To&Es in Normandy, '44

Post by Kelvin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:06 am

Hello, any actual organization on Pz AA 116 of 9 and 116.Pz division on June 1 1944 ? Thank

Kelvin

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