German To&Es in Normandy, '44

German unit histories, lineages, OoBs, ToEs, commanders, fieldpost numbers, organization, etc.

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K. Smith
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German To&Es in Normandy, '44

Post by K. Smith » Sat May 20, 2006 7:42 am

I am working on a research project regarding German and Allied units in Normandy during 1944. Specifically, a comparison of OOBs and TO&Es of all units involved. Does anyone know the TO&E of the standard Recon battalions in the Heer and SS Panzer division?
I have seen that it consisted of 5 companies plus a HQ staff and HQ company. How many armored cars and halftracks were in each unit and what types?

If anyone can be of assistance, I would greatly appreciate. :D

BTW, I have been observing this site and its forum for many years now. Cheers and congrats to all concerned for a first rate job on making this site a premerier research source. :up:

Smith

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » Sat May 20, 2006 12:55 pm

Hello

It will be very difficult to determine which units used exactly which type of KStN at a certain stage. Good luck with this research. If you need the exact KStN have a look into the KStN section of my site.

\Christoph

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Christian
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Post by Christian » Sat May 20, 2006 2:25 pm

In addition to Christoph Awender's excellent website, I thought that the following information might be interest:
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... gerob.html

Cheers,

Christian

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Post by K. Smith » Sun May 21, 2006 12:44 pm

Thanks to both of you for the replies!

Christian, excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, I already have Zetterling's book which I believe the website is based on. BTW, I would recommend it to anyone interested in the German forces in Normandy in 1944. In addition to very detailed information on units involved he also has an interesting discussion on the combat effectiveness of airpower. Disciples of Giulio Douhet will find it very irritating! :x

Christoph, I have taken a look a your website :up: , but I could use some guidance into how to interpret the data. For instance, a panzer division organized under the Type 43 tables would have which KStN for its Recon Battalion? (I assume this would the TO&E which units in Normandy would be using) Also, I do not see anything for a Recon Battalion ([i]Panzeraufklarung Abteilung[/i]) as such. Please bear with me if I am overlooking something; I haven't studied German in about fifteen years.

If it would simplify matters, I am currently examing units involved in Operation COBRA and we could just focus on those for now.

Thanks again!

Smith

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Post by bradhunter » Mon May 22, 2006 6:35 am

K. Smith wrote:Thanks to both of you for the replies!

Christian, excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, I already have Zetterling's book which I believe the website is based on. BTW, I would recommend it to anyone interested in the German forces in Normandy in 1944. In addition to very detailed information on units involved he also has an interesting discussion on the combat effectiveness of airpower. Disciples of Giulio Douhet will find it very irritating! :x

Christoph, I have taken a look a your website :up: , but I could use some guidance into how to interpret the data. For instance, a panzer division organized under the Type 43 tables would have which KStN for its Recon Battalion? (I assume this would the TO&E which units in Normandy would be using) Also, I do not see anything for a Recon Battalion (Panzeraufklarung Abteilung) as such. Please bear with me if I am overlooking something; I haven't studied German in about fifteen years.

If it would simplify matters, I am currently examing units involved in Operation COBRA and we could just focus on those for now.

Thanks again!

Smith
Don't be confused into thinking that the German divisional organization is like the "cookie-cutter" organizations of the western Allies. As Chistoph said, you have to look at the individual divisional organization at a specific period of time. The component units of the German divisional organizations were, almost, unique. It depended on what time period the unit was raised (which "wave"), and field conditions. The 21st Panzer in Normandy is an excellent example. This unit contained a whole lot of field-constructed and modified "beute" equipment, only resembling the current KStN (and 21st Panzer never did get a Panther battalion). For an informed answer on Aufklarungs Battalions see:

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20235

Brad

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Post by Hans Weber » Mon May 22, 2006 11:52 am

Hello

SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abteilung 2, 2. SS Panzer Division on the 1st July 1944:

- Stab
- Stabskompanie, partially missing hardware
- 1./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt 2 (Pz Späh. Kp c. , 250/9), missing hardware
- 2./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 2 (le Aufklärungskompanie auf le SPW), full
- 3./SS-Pz. Aufkl.Abt 2 (le Aufklärungskompanie auf le SPW), full
- 4./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 2 (s. Kompanie), full
- 5.SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 2 (Versorgungskompanie), possibly missing hardware

The unit was at 100% manpower. Stabskompanie and 1./SS Pz. Kp were not issued their armoured cars and Sdkfz 250/9, respectivly. It had 26 medium SPW plus 9 medium SPW (radio), 58 le SPW plus 4 light SPW (radio). It had switchted over to the Panzerdivision type 44 between June 44 and July 44: The 1. Kompanie became Stabskompanie, the 2. became 1. and the rest was renumbered accordingly, at least on paper, SPWs might still carry old numbers according the structure valid in June 44.

The unit had received the full complement of 64 le SPW and 35 mSPW according the old type 43 structure, which translates into:

- Stab, 2 le SPW and 10 m SPW (2x 250/3, 7x 251/2, 1 x 251/8, 2 x 251/11)
- 2. Aufklärungskompanie, 31 le SPW (22x250/1, 2x250/3, 4x250/7, 3x250/10)
-3. Aufklärungskompanie as 2.
- schwere Kompanie: 25 m SPW (1 x251/2 for the company leader, 10 x 251/1 of which four were in the IG Zug, two towed the sIG and two carried ammo, five in the the Pz. Jg Zg, one for the platoon leader, possibly carrying a 2cm KwK field conversion, 3 towed the 3 AT Guns, one carried ammo, one was in the KwK Zug, carried ammo, together with 6 x 251/9 in the KwK Zug and 1 x 251/2. There were 7 x 251/7 in the Pionier Zug.


Data for PLD and 17. SS. PGR Div has to wait, must leave now.

Cheers
Hans

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Post by Hans Weber » Tue May 23, 2006 12:06 pm

Hello

SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 17 , 1st June 1944

Stab

1./SS-Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 17 (Panzerspähkompanie)
2./SS-Aufkl. Abt. 17 (Auklärungskompanie)
3./SS-Aufkl. Abt.17 (Aufklärungskompanie)
4./SS-Aufkl. Abt. 17 (Auklärungskompanie)
5./SS-Aufkl. Abt. 17 (schwere Kompanie)
6./SS-Aufkl. Abt. 17 (Versorgungskompanie)


Stab had a Nachrichtenzug, probably not armoured.

1. Kp had one heavy platoon with 2 x 231 and 2 x 232 (Fu), three light platoons with 2 x 222 and 3 x 223 (Fu).

the four heavy armoured cars and 12 light armoured cars were originally material of the Pz. Aufklärungsabteilung 2. three more armoured cars, possibly 223 conversions, equipped with a KwK of unknown calibre are of unknown origin.

All three Aufklärungskompanien were mounted on VW Schwimmwagen, three platoons with three squads each and a heavy platoon with two grenade launchers and four heavy MG's

The heavy company had a Pz Jg Zug with three truck towed AT Guns, a light infantry gun platoon with with three light IG's 7,5cm and a Pionierzug on Schwimmwagen.

PLD tomorrow

Cheers
Hans

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Post by smaug » Tue May 23, 2006 12:55 pm

Great stuff, Hans

After the PLD, we get Aufkl. Abt. 12 , right :D

Not that i wanna pusch you :wink:

regards Henk

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Post by K. Smith » Tue May 23, 2006 6:18 pm

:up:
Hans,
Excellent! This is exactly what I was looking for. Please continue passing on this information whenver you are able to! :D

Thanks!

Smith

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Post by Hans Weber » Wed May 24, 2006 3:44 am

Hello

Before PLD, I have to add the following regarding Götz v. Berlichingen:

- the number of HMG's in the heavy platoons is not sure due to conflicting informations. It might also be just 2 HMG's, as eg on the Kampfgruppengliederung dated 1st June 1944.

- the unknown calibre mentioned above most probably is a 2cm KwK. It is not sure why the same Gliederung shows 10 2cm guns as symbols and adds 13 guns next to it. It could even be that we have unmounted guns accounted for here.

- At the time Cobra started, heavy losses had incurred. Status of armoured cars on the 7th July was down to 7, of which one now was in the Divisionsstab.

More later
Cheers
Hans

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Post by TimoWr » Wed May 24, 2006 5:20 am

SS-Panzer-Aufklärungsabteilung 1 LSSAH:

- Abteilungsstab
- Stabskompanie: Nachrichtenzug (Sd.Kfz. 250), Panzerspähzug (Sd.Kfz. 234/2), Schwimmwagenzug, Kradschützenzug
- 1. (Pz. Späh.-) Kompanie: 4 Züge (Sd.Kfz. 250/9 - nicht einsatzbereit)
- 2. (le. SPW.-) Kompanie: 4 Züge (Sd.Kfz. 250)
- 3. (SPW.-) Kompanie: 3 Züge (Sd.Kfz. 251)
- 4. (schw.-) Kompanie: Kanonenzug (nicht einsatzbereit), Pionierzug, Panzerjägerzug (7,5 cm Pak), schw. I.G.-Zug
- Versorgungskompanie

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Wed May 24, 2006 5:29 am

Gerätelage / Panzerlehrdivision :

http://tinypic.com/i5dno2.jpg

Source : Ritgen

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Hans Weber » Wed May 24, 2006 9:02 am

Hello

Pz. Aufklärungsabteilung 130, 1st June 1944

Stab, Nachrichtenzug

1./Pz. ALA 130 (Panzerspähkompanie)
2./Pz, ALA 130 (Panzerspähkompanie
3./Pz. ALA 130 (Aufklärungskompanie)
4./Pz. ALA 130 (Aufklärungskompanie)
5./Pz. ALA 130 (schwere Kompanie)
6./Pz. ALA 130 (Versorgungskompanie)


Stab: 2 x 250/2, 1 x 251/8

Nachrichtenzug: 2 x 250/10, 7 x m SPW (5 x 251/2, 2 x 251/11)

1. Panzerspähkompanie: 26 x 234/2
2. Panzerspähkompanie: 16 x 250/9, 9 x 250/5
3. Aufklärungskompanie: 28 le SPW, ie 22 x 250/1, 2 x 250/2, 4 x 250/7
4. Aufklärungskompanie: same as 3. Aufklärungskompanie
5. schwere Kompanie: 1 x 250/10, 25 m SPW, ie 6 x 251/1, 2 x 251/2, 7 x 251/7, 6 x 251/9, 4 x 251/10. The Kompanie had a Gruppe Führer, a le IG-Zug, a Pionier-Zug and a Pz. Jg.-Zug.


Unit was at full strength in manpower. The three 250/8 per Aufklärungskompanie were for not delivered, which is however not unusual. If the 250/10 still carried a 3,7cm Pak can not be said. They were however most probably delivered as such to the predecessor of Pz. Aufklärungsabteilung 130.

The unit had on the 6th July incurred in losses of 6.5% in manpower.
material no longer on strength:

1./Pz. ALA 130: 4 x 234/2
2./Pz. ALA 130: 4 x 250/9
3./Pz. ALA 130: no data on SPW's, lost 23 le MG
4./Pz. ALA 130: no data on SPW's, lost 16 le MG
5./Pz. ALA 130: no exact data on SPW, at least one 251/9, one 250/10 or 251/10, 13 le MG

Now Henk, you really want to know about SS-AA 12?

Cheers
Hans

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Post by smaug » Wed May 24, 2006 9:17 am

If you would be so kind, :D
I still am working on the 26th reg, but such an opertunity, to get your detailed view of the aufk.abt i cant let past.

Henk :[]

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Wed May 24, 2006 9:18 am

This Thread is getting better & better 8)

Merci , dear Hans :wink:

:up:

Jan-Hendrik

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