Most highly decorated unit

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Imad
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Most highly decorated unit

Post by Imad » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:09 pm

Which was the most highly decorated unit of the Wehrmacht? I mean division size or less. Heer or Waffen SS.
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Doktor Krollspell
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Post by Doktor Krollspell » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:46 pm

Hello Imad!

If you want a serious discussion on this matter, you must refine your parameters... For instance size of unit? How long did the unit serve at the front? etc. etc. What decorations of course... I suppose you mean the Knights' Cross bearers of a specific unit.

The problem is, how are you going to compare the 4. Panzer-Division which served from Poland 1939 to the last defensive battles in 1945 with a unit like SS-Festungs-Regiment "Besslein" with 3.500 men which fought for only four months in 1945? The first unit recieved well over 60 Knight's Crosses (not counting some Oakleaves) and the latter recieved four Knigth's Crosses... Which one of these units was the most highly decorated unit?


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Imad
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Post by Imad » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:37 pm

Hello Herr Doktor!
As I said earlier, I was looking for a division size unit. By most highly decorated I mean the most iron crosses, regardless of how long the unit served. We in the English speaking world have ready access to histories or Allied units but unfortunately the information I really thirst for, about German units, I really have a hard time locating. I suspect the situation is different in Europe and I really envy the detailed information you guys can obtain about Wehrmacht, particularly infantry, units.
For example, I would be really grateful for any guidance on where I can obtain info on the 64th Infantry Division that fought our troops in the Scheldt estuary.
All the best, Imad
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Doktor Krollspell
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Post by Doktor Krollspell » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:10 am

Hello Imad!

As I mentioned, the 4. Panzer-Division must be one of the most KC decorated Divisions in Germany, probably just surpasses by the 2. SS-Panzer-Division "Das Reich" which, if I remember correctly got some 70+ KC's and over a dozen Oakleaves and on top of that three Swords... I must find some old papers of mine to confirm this.

If you look at Jason Pipes' site under "Heer", there he lists almost every Division along with the unit's KC bearers. For instance, the 64. Infaterie-Division was only active between August and November of 1944 (probably disbanded then) and recieved two Knight's Crosses.


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Post by Nibelung » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:18 am

Mark V. wrote: "Das Reich"

Pz.Rgt.: 18+2EL
Der Führer: 16+4EL+1SW
Deutschland: 14+3EL+1SW
AA:5+1EL
Kdr.4+1(Ostendorf)+3EL+1SW
Pi.Abt.: 3+1(Schmelzer)+1EL
Art.Rgt.: 3+1EL
Stug.Abt.: 2
Flak.Abt.: 2
Pzjg.Abt.: 1
Langemarck: 1
Kradsch.Abt.: 1

Total: 72+15EL+3SW
Still searching for my 4.Panzer Division files...

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Jerry
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Post by Jerry » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:39 am

According to Die Deutschen Divisionen band 1, there were no "Swords" awarded to members of the 2 SS DR. While members of the 4 Pz.Div. received the following:

Swords - 1
Oakleaves - 10
Knights Cross - 73


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Post by Doktor Krollspell » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:36 am

Hello Jerry et al.

About the Swords-bearers in the “Das Reich” Division, almost every book/website mentions the following three Officers:

Otto Baum, SS-Standartenführer und Führer 2. SS-Panzer-Division “Das Reich” u. 17. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division “Götz von Berlichingen” in Personalunion, received the Swords (nr. 95) to the Knight’s Cross on 02.09.1944.

Otto Weidinger, SS-Obersturmbannführer, Kdr. SS-Pz.GR 4 “Der Führer” received the Swords (nr. 150) to the Knight’s Cross on 06.05.1945.

Günter-Eberhard Wisliceny, SS-Obersturmbannführer, Kdr. SS-Pz.GR 3 “Deutschland” received the Swords (nr. 151) to the Knight’s Cross on 06.05.1945.

The problem with the Swords decorations for Weidinger and for Wisliceny is the late award date of May 6, 1945 and the question of who/which had the legal and official right to bestow this kind of high awards after the death of Adolf Hitler. According to Veit Scherzer and his new, and thoroughly researched book “Ritterkreuzträger 1939-1945” (2005), several of the awards given in late April and especially in early May of 1945 where given by Commanders that didn’t have the right to grant such awards. SS-Oberstgruppenführer und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS Josef “Sepp” Dietrich, CO of the 6. SS-Panzer-Armee was one of them that had no legal or official right to grant such awards.

Still, the OdR, the Ordensgemeinschaft d. Ritterkreuzträger consider both Weidinger and Wisliceny as Swords-bearers and have done so since they started in 1952. But I think that the research done by Veit Scherzer and so presented in his book (the undisputed successor of the books by von Seemen and Fellgiebel) clearly shows the official and legal ground for this decorations. With this said, many of the Officers, NCO’s and soldiers that received their Knight’s Crosses in the the field so late in the war certainly deserved their decorations but the last days of the crumbling Reich didn’t allow them to justifiably recive them.

…so the only true (as in legal and official) bearer of the Swords is SS-Standartenführer Otto Baum. Still, the 2. SS-Panzer-Division “Das Reich” must surely place very high, whichever awards we are counting…?!


With best regards,

Krollspell
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Post by » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:52 am

Bonjour,
most decorated unit of the Wehrmacht

Infanterie Division
7 ID 52 decoration so 5 Eich
28 ID 51 decoration
8 ID 50 decoration

Gebirgs Jäger Division
4GJD 38 decoration so 2 Eich
1GJD 36 decoration
3GJD 34 decoration

Panzer Division
4 Pz D 84 decoration so 9 Eich and 1 Schw
5 Pz D 63 decoration
9 Pz D 60 decoration

Panzergrenadier Division
Pz GD Grossdeutschland 69 decoration so 8 Eich and 2 Schw
90 PzGD 32 decoration
20 PzGD 29 decoration

Waffen SS
2 SS Pz D Das Reich 91 decoration so 15 Eich and 3 Schw
1 SS Pz D LAH 66 decoration so 10 Eich and 3 Schw
5 SS Pz D Wiking 65 decoration so 7 Eich , 3 Schw and 1 Brillante
3 SS Pz D Totenkopf 55 decoration so 8 Eich and 1 Schw

classement
2 SS Pz D Das Reich 91 decoration so 15 Eich and 3 Schw
4 Pz D 84 decoration so 9 Eich and 1 Schw
Pz GD Grossdeutschland 69 decoration so 8 Eich and 2 Schw
1 SS Pz D LAH 66 decoration so 10 Eich and 3 Schw
5 SS Pz D Wiking 65 decoration so 7 Eich , 3 Schw and 1 Brillante
5 Pz D 63 decoration
9 Pz D 60 decoration

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Post by Doktor Krollspell » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:31 am

Hello Gentlemen!

If this thread is going to work, i e make some sense, it's needed to post lists with names. Because when I just see a Division with a number like 34 it's hard to tell if it's correct or not. If it's an obious name missing or not... For example, the post by Jé lists the 3. Gebirgs-Division as having 34 RKT but no Oakleaves or higher. Other sources states different numbers, for example Jason Pipes here on Feldgrau mentions 30 RKT in this Division. Another fact missing is that a commanding general of the 3. Gebirgs-Division recieved the Oakleaves, namely Generalleutnant Paul Klatt on 26.12.1944 (nr. 686).


So more detailed lists, or at least sources to verify claims...

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Post by » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:01 am

correction

Infanterie Division
7 ID 52 decoration so 5 Eich
28 ID 51 decoration so 6 Eich
8 ID 50 decoration so 1 Eich

Gebirgs Jäger Division
4GJD 38 decoration so 2 Eich
1GJD 36 decoration so 3 Eich
3GJD 34 decoration so 2 Eich

Panzer Division
4 Pz D 84 decoration so 9 Eich and 1 Schw
5 Pz D 63 decoration so 7 Eich and 1 Schw
9 Pz D 60 decoration so 4 Eich and 1 Schw

Panzergrenadier Division
Pz GD Grossdeutschland 69 decoration so 8 Eich and 2 Schw
90 PzGD 32 decoration so 3 Eich and 1 Schw
20 PzGD 29 decoration so 6 Eich and 1 Schw

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Re:

Post by Kelvin » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:16 am

jé wrote:correction

Infanterie Division
7 ID 52 decoration so 5 Eich
28 ID 51 decoration so 6 Eich
8 ID 50 decoration so 1 Eich

Gebirgs Jäger Division
4GJD 38 decoration so 2 Eich
1GJD 36 decoration so 3 Eich
3GJD 34 decoration so 2 Eich

Panzer Division
4 Pz D 84 decoration so 9 Eich and 1 Schw
5 Pz D 63 decoration so 7 Eich and 1 Schw
9 Pz D 60 decoration so 4 Eich and 1 Schw

Panzergrenadier Division
Pz GD Grossdeutschland 69 decoration so 8 Eich and 2 Schw
90 PzGD 32 decoration so 3 Eich and 1 Schw
20 PzGD 29 decoration so 6 Eich and 1 Schw
8. and 28. mean 8. and 28.Jager divisions ? Anyone have top ten list in infanterie division ?

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Re:

Post by xguardian » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:52 am

Imad wrote: We in the English speaking world have ready access to histories or Allied units but unfortunately the information I really thirst for, about German units, I really have a hard time locating. I suspect the situation is different in Europe
That almost sounded condescending however, after reading it all I am sure you did not mean it that way. Also please do not make the US educational system seem worse than it is by saying "English speaking world " and then not include Europe where England actually is.

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Re: Most highly decorated unit

Post by sebastian » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:47 am

and the name imad is arab,confusing :-)
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Jerry
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Re: Most highly decorated unit

Post by Jerry » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:20 am

xguardian wrote:
Imad wrote: We in the English speaking world have ready access to histories or Allied units but unfortunately the information I really thirst for, about German units, I really have a hard time locating. I suspect the situation is different in Europe
That almost sounded condescending however, after reading it all I am sure you did not mean it that way. Also please do not make the US educational system seem worse than it is by saying "English speaking world " and then not include Europe where England actually is.
What exactly sounds condescending about that? And who died and left you in charge of decorum anyway?

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Re: Most highly decorated unit

Post by xguardian » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:35 pm

Jerry wrote:
xguardian wrote:
Imad wrote: We in the English speaking world have ready access to histories or Allied units but unfortunately the information I really thirst for, about German units, I really have a hard time locating. I suspect the situation is different in Europe
That almost sounded condescending however, after reading it all I am sure you did not mean it that way. Also please do not make the US educational system seem worse than it is by saying "English speaking world " and then not include Europe where England actually is.
What exactly sounds condescending about that? And who died and left you in charge of decorum anyway?

Jerry
Nobody did . I over stepped my bounds. Maybe I misread the condescension. Now as far as the obvious exclusion of England from you English speaking world , I Was trying to help you not sound ignorant . Sorry you got butt hurt at the help

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