A hard one...
When the Afrika Regiment 361 was sent in North Africa, it was supported by an artillery battalion, Afrika-Artillerie Abteilung 361.This unit was subordinated to the Afrika Division z.b.V., which became 90. Leichte Division in November 1941.
This division had a very complicated organization throughout its history. Its artillery support seemed to have been provided by various units between November 1941 and August 1942 : Afrika-Artillerie Abteilung 361 during the first months, and Artillerie Regiment 190 after August 1st 1942 (Afrika-Artillerie Abteilung 361 was integrated as I./Art. Rgt. 190 at this time).
My question is : what was the artillery support unit of the division between March and August 1942 ? It was possibly Afrika-Artillerie Abteilung 361, but I read several times that this battalion was increased to the strenght of a regiment, knowing as Afrika-Artillerie Regiment 361. Could someone tell me whether this regiment existed or not ?
Thanks in advance !
Regards,
Loïc
Afrika-Artillerie Regiment 361 ?
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Afrika-Artillerie Regiment 361 ?
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Doktor Krollspell
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Hello Skarn!
This is what the book "Uniforms, organization and history of the AFRIKAKORPS" by Roger James Bender and Richard D. Law (1973) mentions about it. In the OOB for the 90. leichte Afrika-Division it says:
Regards,
Krollspell
This is what the book "Uniforms, organization and history of the AFRIKAKORPS" by Roger James Bender and Richard D. Law (1973) mentions about it. In the OOB for the 90. leichte Afrika-Division it says:
This qoute is annotated with the comment Panzerarmee order of March 24, 1942. I don't know if you consider this proof of there being an AR 361 in the spring of 1942 or not? It could always be a typo...Artillerie-Regiment (mot) 190 (formed from Artillerie-Regiment 361 on May 27, 1942)
Regards,
Krollspell
"Wie es eigentlich gewesen ist"
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)
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Martin Block
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Just went through my files of 90. lei.Afrika-Div. and - surprise surprise - it seems that Art.Rgt. 361 actually did never exist since after the initial order from 10.3.1942 it was renumbered to 190 even before formation had begun!
OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. (I) Nr. 1125/42 g.Kdos. v. 10.3.1942
German High Command authorised complete reorganisation of units under Pz.Armee Afrika (Neugliederung der Verbände der Pz.Armee Afrika) as requested and proposed by Ob.Kdo. Pz.Armee Afrika in letters to Org.Abt. dated 8.2. resp. 14.2.1942.
This included formation of an Art.Rgt. numbered 361 for 90. lei. Afrika-Div.
Art.Abt. 361 was to be converted into a "gemischte le.F.H.Abt.(mot.)" and was to become the I. Abt. of the new Art.Rgt. 361.
An Art.Rgts.Stab 361 and a II./Art.Rgt. 361 were to be created in Germany until 1.8.1942.
OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. (I) Nr. 4616/42 geh. v. 5.5.1942
Refering to the order dated 10.3.1942 Org.Abt. orders Chef H Rüst u BdE to create a Stab & Stabskp. Art.Rgt.(mot.) and a gem. le.F.H.-Abt.(mot.) for 90. lei. Afrika-Div. (no specific designation given in this order).
OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA Ia(I) Nr. 1942/42 g.Kdos. v. 27.5.1942
Art.Abt. 361 is renamed to I./Art.Rgt. 190 (!!!) and is to be converted into a "gemischte le.F.H.Abt.(mot.)".
OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA Ia(I) Nr. 18971/42 geh. v. 11.6.1942
Wehrkreis VI is ordered to form the Art.Rgt.Stab with Stabsbttr. Art.Rgt.(mot.) 190. Units are to be ready for transport to Africa by 1.8.1942 at the latest.
OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA Ia(I) Nr. 18971/42 geh. v. 23.6.1942
Wehrkreis VI is ordered to form the II./Art.Rgt.(mot) 190 with Stab, Stabsbttr. 2 l.F.H. 18 batteries and 1 10 cm K 18 battery. Units are to be ready for transport to Africa by 1.8.1942 at the latest.
Wehrkreis VIII has to supply remnants of personnel from former s.Art.Abt.(mot) 646.
Wehrkreis XVII has to supply remnants of personnel from former s.Art.Abt.(mot) I./109.
I have no data when these units were actually transported to Africa and reached 90. lei.Afrika-Div.
OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. (I) Nr. 4499/42 g.Kdos. v. 21.9.1942
Reorganisation of Art.Rgt. 190 ordered. The II./Art.Rgt. 22, until then attached to verst.Gren.Rgt. 47 (mot), is renamed to III./Art.Rgt. 190 and incorporated into 90. lei.Afrika-Div.
Hope this helped clear things up somewhat
Regards
Martin Block
OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. (I) Nr. 1125/42 g.Kdos. v. 10.3.1942
German High Command authorised complete reorganisation of units under Pz.Armee Afrika (Neugliederung der Verbände der Pz.Armee Afrika) as requested and proposed by Ob.Kdo. Pz.Armee Afrika in letters to Org.Abt. dated 8.2. resp. 14.2.1942.
This included formation of an Art.Rgt. numbered 361 for 90. lei. Afrika-Div.
Art.Abt. 361 was to be converted into a "gemischte le.F.H.Abt.(mot.)" and was to become the I. Abt. of the new Art.Rgt. 361.
An Art.Rgts.Stab 361 and a II./Art.Rgt. 361 were to be created in Germany until 1.8.1942.
OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. (I) Nr. 4616/42 geh. v. 5.5.1942
Refering to the order dated 10.3.1942 Org.Abt. orders Chef H Rüst u BdE to create a Stab & Stabskp. Art.Rgt.(mot.) and a gem. le.F.H.-Abt.(mot.) for 90. lei. Afrika-Div. (no specific designation given in this order).
OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA Ia(I) Nr. 1942/42 g.Kdos. v. 27.5.1942
Art.Abt. 361 is renamed to I./Art.Rgt. 190 (!!!) and is to be converted into a "gemischte le.F.H.Abt.(mot.)".
OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA Ia(I) Nr. 18971/42 geh. v. 11.6.1942
Wehrkreis VI is ordered to form the Art.Rgt.Stab with Stabsbttr. Art.Rgt.(mot.) 190. Units are to be ready for transport to Africa by 1.8.1942 at the latest.
OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA Ia(I) Nr. 18971/42 geh. v. 23.6.1942
Wehrkreis VI is ordered to form the II./Art.Rgt.(mot) 190 with Stab, Stabsbttr. 2 l.F.H. 18 batteries and 1 10 cm K 18 battery. Units are to be ready for transport to Africa by 1.8.1942 at the latest.
Wehrkreis VIII has to supply remnants of personnel from former s.Art.Abt.(mot) 646.
Wehrkreis XVII has to supply remnants of personnel from former s.Art.Abt.(mot) I./109.
I have no data when these units were actually transported to Africa and reached 90. lei.Afrika-Div.
OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. (I) Nr. 4499/42 g.Kdos. v. 21.9.1942
Reorganisation of Art.Rgt. 190 ordered. The II./Art.Rgt. 22, until then attached to verst.Gren.Rgt. 47 (mot), is renamed to III./Art.Rgt. 190 and incorporated into 90. lei.Afrika-Div.
Hope this helped clear things up somewhat
Regards
Martin Block
Woaw ! Amazing.
Martin, you have such an amount of information in your database that you may have several computers at home, I guess
Well, I think this clears up definitively the question of the Artillerie Regiment 361 under 90. Leichte Afrika Division.
Thanks a lot for your precious help.
Just curious : do you have any specific information - I mean OKH orders - about 90. Leichte Afrika Division ? I would be probably very interested if it was the case.
Thanks again,
Very best regards
Loïc
Martin, you have such an amount of information in your database that you may have several computers at home, I guess
Well, I think this clears up definitively the question of the Artillerie Regiment 361 under 90. Leichte Afrika Division.
Thanks a lot for your precious help.
Just curious : do you have any specific information - I mean OKH orders - about 90. Leichte Afrika Division ? I would be probably very interested if it was the case.
Thanks again,
Very best regards
Loïc
"On ne relève pas Picardie !" (Picardie Regiment is not relieved !)
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Martin Block
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- Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:09 am
Loïc,
I have the war diary no. 1 of the division complete with 'Anlagen'. It covers the period 26.6.1941 - 31.3.1942 and is about 1300 pages strong (NARA T315 R1155). In addition to that I have about 150 pages of related documents found on other NARA microfilm rolls. These include a more or less complete set of 'Sollgliederungen' sheets prepared by Org.Abt. with lots of handwritten annotations giving dates and order numbers for organisational changes 1941-43.
So I probably would have been able to answer a number of your earlier questions more precisely, but since the 90. le.Div. is currently actually not at the top of my agenda and going through that amount of paperwork takes its time in some cases I choose not to. Hope you understand. May be another time;-)
Must say I find many of your questions quite interesting because they are so specific and challenging. What are you up to? Re-write Tessin?
Martin Block
I have the war diary no. 1 of the division complete with 'Anlagen'. It covers the period 26.6.1941 - 31.3.1942 and is about 1300 pages strong (NARA T315 R1155). In addition to that I have about 150 pages of related documents found on other NARA microfilm rolls. These include a more or less complete set of 'Sollgliederungen' sheets prepared by Org.Abt. with lots of handwritten annotations giving dates and order numbers for organisational changes 1941-43.
So I probably would have been able to answer a number of your earlier questions more precisely, but since the 90. le.Div. is currently actually not at the top of my agenda and going through that amount of paperwork takes its time in some cases I choose not to. Hope you understand. May be another time;-)
Must say I find many of your questions quite interesting because they are so specific and challenging. What are you up to? Re-write Tessin?
Martin Block
I understand, Martin, don't worry about that
Well, I just hope that when you will choose the next topic to deal with, you will interest to the Division z.b.V. "Afrika"/90. Leichte Division/90. Leichte Afrika Division/90. Afrika Division
What I'm currently up to ? Well, I'm very interesting in the Heer specific units, with a specific organizational history, like the 311. Infanterie Division, the 10. Panzer Division, the 5. Leichte Division (motorisiert) and so on. 90. Leichte Division is a real nightmare concerning its subordinated units, so it was clear that it was one of my favourite topic
Er, I know that the division is not your current work, but I have to try
Could you just tell me whether there was a third battalion in Schützen Regiment 155 in 1941-1942 ?
Just in case...
Thanks a lot for your help. You are like a lighthouse in a night for us
Very best regards,
Loïc
Well, I just hope that when you will choose the next topic to deal with, you will interest to the Division z.b.V. "Afrika"/90. Leichte Division/90. Leichte Afrika Division/90. Afrika Division
What I'm currently up to ? Well, I'm very interesting in the Heer specific units, with a specific organizational history, like the 311. Infanterie Division, the 10. Panzer Division, the 5. Leichte Division (motorisiert) and so on. 90. Leichte Division is a real nightmare concerning its subordinated units, so it was clear that it was one of my favourite topic
Er, I know that the division is not your current work, but I have to try
Could you just tell me whether there was a third battalion in Schützen Regiment 155 in 1941-1942 ?
Just in case...
Thanks a lot for your help. You are like a lighthouse in a night for us
Very best regards,
Loïc
"On ne relève pas Picardie !" (Picardie Regiment is not relieved !)
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Martin Block
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OK guys,
Yes, there was a III./Schtz.Rgt. 155 in 1941/42!
On 28.10. the regiment filed a report to division giving the actual organisation of the regiment as of 26.10.1941. The OoB shows I. - III./155 present with 4 companies each.
The OoB of 90. lei.Div. as of 10.11.1941 also shows I. - III./155 present with 4 companies each.
The OoB of 90. lei.Div. as of 8.12.1941 then shows a much depleted regiment. There are only two weak battalions left. I./155 made up from 1. and 6. Kp., and II./155 made up from 8. Kp. and 1 company formed from remnants III./255 (two-five-five).
A regimental OoB of Schtz.Rgt. 155 as of 16.12.1941 shows only one battalion made up from 1., 6. and 8. Kp. plus a 9.(schwere) Kp.
Also under the regimental command are 3./Pi.Btl. 900, Sperrverband Daumüller and 5./Art.Rgt. 115.
An additional note mentiones "Resttross I. und III. Btl.: 1 Beamter, 29 Uffz. und Mannschaften".
On 10.1.1941 there is an entry in the war diary that CO DAK requested immediate recreation of 2 battalions for Schtz.Rgt. 155.
On 16.1.1941 Rommel visited the division and there was a discussion about tactics used in the battles around Tobruk. It is mentioned here that the III./155 had suffered 70% losses in the attack on Sidi Rezegh airfield on 20.11.1941.
On 15.2.1942 the III./155 for the first time shows up again in OoB of the division (last OoB I have). Here Schtz.Rgt. 155 is shown back at full strength with 3 battalions of 4 companies each.
Note: I could not find out when exactly the order to bring back the regiment to full strenght was given and what troops were used.
16.2.1942 Hptm. Welsch arrives and is appointed CO III./155
18.2.1942 III./155 is ordered to join the regiment on the front line 25 km south of Derna.
26.2.1942 Division CO visits III./155 in Barce.
28.2.1942 III./155 has left Barce and joined Schtz.Rgt. 155.
23.3.1942 Schtz.Rgt. 155 reports III. Btl. with Kampfgruppe Tmimi.
27.3.1942 III./155 is tasked with guarding divisional right flank from Tmimi position to Got bu Madiet
Guess this should be enough data to prove the existence of a III./155 in 1941/42, and I hope with this I earned myself a little pause now;-)))
Martin Block
Yes, there was a III./Schtz.Rgt. 155 in 1941/42!
On 28.10. the regiment filed a report to division giving the actual organisation of the regiment as of 26.10.1941. The OoB shows I. - III./155 present with 4 companies each.
The OoB of 90. lei.Div. as of 10.11.1941 also shows I. - III./155 present with 4 companies each.
The OoB of 90. lei.Div. as of 8.12.1941 then shows a much depleted regiment. There are only two weak battalions left. I./155 made up from 1. and 6. Kp., and II./155 made up from 8. Kp. and 1 company formed from remnants III./255 (two-five-five).
A regimental OoB of Schtz.Rgt. 155 as of 16.12.1941 shows only one battalion made up from 1., 6. and 8. Kp. plus a 9.(schwere) Kp.
Also under the regimental command are 3./Pi.Btl. 900, Sperrverband Daumüller and 5./Art.Rgt. 115.
An additional note mentiones "Resttross I. und III. Btl.: 1 Beamter, 29 Uffz. und Mannschaften".
On 10.1.1941 there is an entry in the war diary that CO DAK requested immediate recreation of 2 battalions for Schtz.Rgt. 155.
On 16.1.1941 Rommel visited the division and there was a discussion about tactics used in the battles around Tobruk. It is mentioned here that the III./155 had suffered 70% losses in the attack on Sidi Rezegh airfield on 20.11.1941.
On 15.2.1942 the III./155 for the first time shows up again in OoB of the division (last OoB I have). Here Schtz.Rgt. 155 is shown back at full strength with 3 battalions of 4 companies each.
Note: I could not find out when exactly the order to bring back the regiment to full strenght was given and what troops were used.
16.2.1942 Hptm. Welsch arrives and is appointed CO III./155
18.2.1942 III./155 is ordered to join the regiment on the front line 25 km south of Derna.
26.2.1942 Division CO visits III./155 in Barce.
28.2.1942 III./155 has left Barce and joined Schtz.Rgt. 155.
23.3.1942 Schtz.Rgt. 155 reports III. Btl. with Kampfgruppe Tmimi.
27.3.1942 III./155 is tasked with guarding divisional right flank from Tmimi position to Got bu Madiet
Guess this should be enough data to prove the existence of a III./155 in 1941/42, and I hope with this I earned myself a little pause now;-)))
Martin Block
Thanks a lot Martin !
Great information. It leads to another questions about the fate of this battalion but you deserve your break, so I couldn't ask...
David, don't worry, it's what this forum is for : confronting information and finding the historical truth
Thank both of you for your kind help,
Regards,
Loïc
Great information. It leads to another questions about the fate of this battalion but you deserve your break, so I couldn't ask...
David, don't worry, it's what this forum is for : confronting information and finding the historical truth
Thank both of you for your kind help,
Regards,
Loïc
"On ne relève pas Picardie !" (Picardie Regiment is not relieved !)
Re: Afrika-Artillerie Regiment 361 ?
Earlier in this thread Martin said he was not sure what guns actually arrived in North Africa for the Artillery Abteilungen of the 90th Leichte Division.Does anyone else know?
I think three Batteries of Russian 7.62cm guns were used to kit out one Abteilung in around early/mid 1942. But I've nothing really conclusive to offer........
I think three Batteries of Russian 7.62cm guns were used to kit out one Abteilung in around early/mid 1942. But I've nothing really conclusive to offer........
Thanks. Dave.