Brecourt Manor battery

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Koen
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Brecourt Manor battery

Post by Koen »

On the internet you can find loads of information about the American assault on Brecourt manor, my question is what is the german story behind this, which german unit operated the Battery?

I have several clues, but i'd like to be sure about it.

reguards,

Koen
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Re: Brecourt Manor battery

Post by Rich »

Koen wrote:On the internet you can find loads of information about the American assault on Brecourt manor, my question is what is the german story behind this, which german unit operated the Battery?

I have several clues, but i'd like to be sure about it.

reguards,

Koen
Hi Koen, there are few German "personal" accounts of Normandy that I have found that were not written by senior officer's, other than some of the D-Day accounts by Gockel and others. Nor have I found mention of the action in any of the official records, unsurprising since so little of 91. Inf.-Div. records survive. But the best clue is the guns themselves; by all reports they were 10.5cm howitzers rather than captured French or Soviet guns. And for that area of operations that restricts the candidates to the batteries of Art.-Regt. 191 that were equipped with le. FH 18/40 and Geb.H. 40. Now I suspect, but haven't confirmed, that the Geb.H. were in I and II Abteilung, i.e., 1.-6. Batterie and the le. FH in 7., 8., and 9. Batterie.

The location of 1. and 2. Batterie are west of the N800, 1. Batterie near Besneville with III./Gren.-Regt. 1057 and 2. Batterie 3.2 kilometers southeast of Bricquebec with II./Gren.-Regt. 1057. 4. Batterie is at Ste. Mere Eglise with 14./Gren.-Regt. 1058. 5. Batterie is near La Jardinerie, 5 kilometers northwest of Montebourg, with II./Gren.-Regt. 1058. 7., 8. and 9. Batterie may be determined from a map appended to the "Bericht ueber die Reise des Herrn Oberbefehlshabers in deb Bereich des LXXXXIV A.K. v. 10.-12. Mai 44" showing the Cotentin KVA's as changed by the arrival of 91 Inf.-Div. 7. Batterie appears to be near Neufmesnil north of La Haye-du-Puits with I./Gren.-Regt. 1057. 8. Batterie is to the southeast, near Mont Castre, with I./Fs.Jg.-Regt. 6. 9. Batterie is with the Pi.Btl. and division HQ at Chateau Haut-Picauville, about 6 kilometers west of Ste. Marie Eglise. No mention is made of 3. or 6. Batterie on the map, but there is a penciled in artillery position centered near Ste-Marie-du-Mont, that is not identified. It seems that 3. and 6. Batterie may have been intended to occupy this position reinforcing the artillery of 709. Inf.-Div. and potrntially supporting III. Btl. and 13. Kp. Gren.-Regt. 1058 at St. Come du Mont, which would then make them the most likely candidates for the Brecourt Manor battery.

So what do you think? :D
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Re: Brecourt Manor battery

Post by Rich »

Rich wrote:It seems that 3. and 6. Batterie may have been intended to occupy this position reinforcing the artillery of 709. Inf.-Div. and potrntially supporting III. Btl. and 13. Kp. Gren.-Regt. 1058 at St. Come du Mont, which would then make them the most likely candidates for the Brecourt Manor battery.

So what do you think? :D
No response? From anybody? So nobody noticed the possible problem with this theory?

If the Brecourt Manor battery was 3. or 6./Art.-Regt. 191., then it appears that they would have been Gebirgshaubitze rather than leichte Feldhaubitze that Easy Company attacked. But everything I have seen always has given me the impression that the pieces knocked out had gunshields, which the Gebirgshaubitze did not? So are we back to square one? Or are the gunshields a fiction added in later? Does anybody know Dick Winter's email address so we can ask him? :D
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Post by V. Andries »

Hi Rich,

More than two years ago I visited the Utah area. I remember seeing a few pictures in Ste-Marie-du-Mont's church entrance hall, showing the Brécourt guns. IIRC, they didn't look like standard Feldhaubitze, but I'm absolutely not sure whether they were Gebirgshaubitze. Maybe someone living in the area or with plans for a visit, can go and check it out.

greetings,

Andries
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Post by Koen »

Thank you for the reply!

I've read in this report from this page:http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/WWII/utah/utah2.htm (part: 21)

Pouppeville was held by sixty to seventy men of the 1058t Regiment (91st Division).

The 1058th regiment operated in the area.

I've also heard from a guy who also done some interesting research, that the 919th grenadier regiment who held the area at Utah beach and inland, that they did not have MG42's, only elder equipment, french, russian etc.

the brecourt manor battery was supported by rear Mg's (MG 42's) so it must have been a unit from the 1085th grenadier regiment.

But which Battalion and Kompanie?
Could it have been that the position was 919th, but supported by the 1058th?

reguards,

Koen


Add,

The unit that operated could have been 709th, they had french 10.5 guns

The Artillery Regiment had the following equipment: (1709)

1. Batterie 4 Czechoslovakian 10 cm howitzers
2. Batterie 4 Czechoslovakian 10 cm howitzers (motor drawn)
3. Batterie 4 French 10,5 cm guns
4. Batterie 4 French 10,5 cm guns

5. Batterie 4 French 10,5 cm guns
6. Batterie 4 French 15,5 cm howitzers
7. Batterie 4 French 15,5 cm howitzers
8. Batterie 4 French 15,5 cm howitzers

9. Batterie 4 Russian 7,62 cm guns
10. Batterie 4 Russian 7,62 cm guns
11. Batterie 4 Russian 7,62 cm guns



On this page it's just more confusing: http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/allemag ... php?id=709

The towns where they operated, wasn't near st marie du mont.

Artillerie-Regiment 1709 : Kommandeur : Oberst Robert Reiter
I./1709 : Kdr :
Gefechtsstand : Equeurdreville
1./1709 : 4x 10cm leFH 14/19 (t) - Cap de la Hague
2./1709 : 4x 10cm leFH 14/19 (t) - Ozouville
3./1709 : 4x 10,5cm K331 (f) - Fort des Fourches
4./1709 : 4x 10,5cm K331 (f) - Ste-Croix
II./1709 : Kdr :
Gefechtsstand : Fermanville
5./1709 : 4x 10,5cm K331 (f) - Fermanville
6./1709 : 4x 15,5cm sHF414 (f) - La Glacière
7./1709 : 4x 15,5cm sHF414 (f)
8./1709 : 4x 15,5cm sHF414 (f)
III./1709 : Kdr :
Gefechtsstand : St-Pierre-Eglise
9./1709 : 4x 7,62cm FK39 (r) - Maurepas
10./1709 : 4x 7,62cm FK39 (r)
11./1709 : 4x 7,62cm FK39 (r) - Val-Bourgoin


I'm beleiving that 1058th reinforced the battery at Brecourt manor.
because:

The 1st Battalion managed to reach to reach the outskirts of Ste.Marie du Mont, only 6km from W5, but found that it was in the hands of 101st Airborne Division, soon to be backed up by elements of the 4th Infantry Division who had landed at Utah Beach earlier that morning. A battalion from AR.191 had held the town before it was taken, they had withdrawn to positions further west

Taken from: http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/normandy.htm

this can be a mistake, but i'm not sure. Was there another battery near st. Marie du mont? that one could have been operated by the 191th AR from the 91th LL div.

Indicated to this, there was another battery.

At the same time that patrols were seeking out the enemy, actions were developing in the immediate vicinity of the command post. At Holdy, 1,000 yards northeast of Culoville, about seventy men of the 506th Parachute Infantry and the 82d Airborne Division had run into a previously unlocated enemy 105-mm. battery.

The battery had thus been overrun when a lieutenant of the 502d Parachute Infantry brought up from forty to fifty more reinforcements. Captain Patch turned over to them responsibility for outposting the guns and reassembled his own force to attack Ste. Marie-du-Mont from the west.

taken from: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/WWII/utah/utah2.htm

[/i]
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Post by Rich »

Koen wrote:I've also heard from a guy who also done some interesting research, that the 919th grenadier regiment who held the area at Utah beach and inland, that they did not have MG42's, only elder equipment, french, russian etc.
Actually, your friend is making some unwarranted assumptions. The diviinal Gliederung of 1 May 1944 actually does not differentiate between Deutsch and Beute MG, although it does indicate that a fair number of other small arms were Beutewaffen:

German
Rifles 8,309
Machinepistols 720
Pistols 1,301
Flare pistols 262

Beute
French rifles 634
Russian semi-automatic rifles 81
Czech rifles 322
Russian pistols 3
Polish pistols 1,183
Belgian pistols 160
Russian machinepistols 42

Given that captured rifles only constitute just over 10 percent of the total and captured machine pistols only about 5 percent, it is unreasonable to suppose that all of the machine guns in a single regiment were foreign as well.
the brecourt manor battery was supported by rear Mg's (MG 42's) so it must have been a unit from the 1085th grenadier regiment.

But which Battalion and Kompanie?
Could it have been that the position was 919th, but supported by the 1058th?

reguards,

Koen
Okay, as far as infantry units go, the candidates are:

III./Gren.-Regt. 1058 and 13. (IG)/Gren.-Regt. 1058 at St.-Come-du-Mont.

14. (Pz.Jg.)/Gren.-Regt. 1058 and 4./Art.-Regt. 191 at St.-Mère-Èglise

(probably) 3. and/or 6./Art.-Regt. 191 in the vicinity of St.-Marie-du-Mont

elements of Gren.-Regt. 919 (minus III. Btl. at Octeville in division reserve) defending the beaches roughly between Pouppeville and Morsalines. Note that WN 5 at La Madeleine was held by a platoon of 3./Gren.-Regt. 919, so it is likely that the southern part of the beaches - probably Poupeville to about Ravenouville, was held by I. Batallion.

Ost-Btl. 795 (Georgisches) (IV./Gren.Regt.739) at Brucheville (east of St.-Marie-du-Mont)

Finally, the defenders were reinforced late in the evening of 6 June by elements of Fs.Jg.-Regt. 6.
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Ruud Wilmsen
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re Art battery at Brecourt Manor

Post by Ruud Wilmsen »

I want to add another possibility.
According to the Niklas Zetterling book :Normandy 1944 the Sturmbattalion AOK 7 had one artillery battery equipped with four French Howitzers (Page 173)
It was located southeast of Ste. Mère-Eglise and was committed to support Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 6 on D-Day.

Source : MS B-845 P. 25
Die deutche 709 Infanterie-Division vor und während der Anglo-Amerikanischen Invasion vom 6. Juni 1944.

The information is only in the book and not on the (further) excellent website. http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/index.html

Greetings
Ruud
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Post by Dima »

Rich wrote:
German
Rifles 8,309
Machinepistols 720
Pistols 1,301
Flare pistols 262

Beute
French rifles 634
Russian semi-automatic rifles 81
Czech rifles 322
Russian pistols 3
Polish pistols 1,183
Belgian pistols 160
Russian machinepistols 42
hey,

are these numbers include 3 Ost batalions small arms?

Dima
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Re: re Art battery at Brecourt Manor

Post by Rich »

Ruud Wilmsen wrote:I want to add another possibility.
According to the Niklas Zetterling book :Normandy 1944 the Sturmbattalion AOK 7 had one artillery battery equipped with four French Howitzers (Page 173)
It was located southeast of Ste. Mère-Eglise and was committed to support Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 6 on D-Day.
Sorry, but my good friend Niklas is a bit off on this, or rather the source he used is. 5./Sturm-Batallion-A.O.K. 7 was atually at Bolleville on 6 June,
on the west coast of the Cotentin. The rest of the battalion was at:

Gefechtsstand – Le Vast (8 kilometers west of Barfleur)
Stabs-Kp. and Pi.-Züg - La Vast (four 2cm Flak, two 5cm m.Pak, one 7.5cm s.Pak, four 12cm s.Gr.-Werf.)
1. Kp. – Broebeufs
2. Kp. – Hill 121 (north of La Haye du Puits)
3. Kp. – Hill 121 (north of La Haye du Puits)
4. Kp. – Lithaire (two 7.5cm le.IG)

So the battalion was actually scattered in an arc running north, west and south of Ste. Mère-Eglise.
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Post by Rich »

Dima wrote:hey,

are these numbers include 3 Ost batalions small arms?

Dima
Hey yourself! 8)

Yes.

Rich
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Post by Rich »

Koen wrote:The unit that operated could have been 709th, they had french 10.5 guns

The Artillery Regiment had the following equipment

The towns where they operated, wasn't near st marie du mont.

At the same time that patrols were seeking out the enemy, actions were developing in the immediate vicinity of the command post. At Holdy, 1,000 yards northeast of Culoville, about seventy men of the 506th Parachute Infantry and the 82d Airborne Division had run into a previously unlocated enemy 105-mm. battery.

The battery had thus been overrun when a lieutenant of the 502d Parachute Infantry brought up from forty to fifty more reinforcements. Captain Patch turned over to them responsibility for outposting the guns and reassembled his own force to attack Ste. Marie-du-Mont from the west.
No, the battery could not have been from Artillerie-Regiment 1709, those locations are all known and nowhere near Brecourt. But yes, as I have said before, the two batteries were probably 3. and 6. Batterie of Artillerie-Regiment 191, but which one was at Brecourt Manor remains unresolved.
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Post by Troger »

I've also heard from a guy who also done some interesting research, that the 919th grenadier regiment who held the area at Utah beach and inland, that they did not have MG42's, only elder equipment, french, russian etc.

the brecourt manor battery was supported by rear Mg's (MG 42's) so it must have been a unit from the 1085th grenadier regiment.

But which Battalion and Kompanie?
Could it have been that the position was 919th, but supported by the 1058th?
These Figures has of OKH Statments on Sept. 1943, so alot could have changed to June. 1944.

The 919th Grenadier Regt. in "German OoB" States that the Regt. had 2 Battalions the I/919th Gren-Regt. had 12 LMGs (Also had the 795th Georgian Rifle Company having 4 LMGs) the II/Gren-Regt. 919 had 12 LMGs in its 3 rifle companies. So most likely at least one of those LMGs was a MG42:) The Author also states that during the normandy campaign the division was given the 17 (tmot) Machine Gun Battalion. Also the Gren-Regt 919 had a company which had LeIG`s (13th (tmot) Infantry gun Comapny) but again I Doubt if they where infantry guns at bercourt, problably bigger sized cannons.
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Re: re Art battery at Brecourt Manor

Post by Koen »

Rich wrote:
5./Sturm-Batallion-A.O.K. 7 was atually at Bolleville on 6 June,
on the west coast of the Cotentin. The rest of the battalion was at:

Gefechtsstand – Le Vast (8 kilometers west of Barfleur)
Stabs-Kp. and Pi.-Züg - La Vast (four 2cm Flak, two 5cm m.Pak, one 7.5cm s.Pak, four 12cm s.Gr.-Werf.)
1. Kp. – Broebeufs
2. Kp. – Hill 121 (north of La Haye du Puits)
3. Kp. – Hill 121 (north of La Haye du Puits)
4. Kp. – Lithaire (two 7.5cm le.IG)

So the battalion was actually scattered in an arc running north, west and south of Ste. Mère-Eglise.
That Battalion was commanded by Major Hugo Messerschmidt right?

In this FJ battle report was written:
Other US airborne forces in the south of the peninsula were being attacked from the north by Gren.Rgt 1058 & Sturm Battalion Messerschmidt.

Gren.Rgt.1057 attacked from the west against airborne landings on the Merderet River further north.

Source: http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/normandy.htm

This was probably during the 6th of June, in the evening.
I'm a bit confused where the sturm battalion was operating, and where 1057th regiment was operating. Probably the only question remains, and that is, what german units defended the Merdret river. I know the Panzer battalion 100 operated there but not sure when they'd arrived.

Only one element of 1058, probably the third or second battallion was defending north of st mere eglise.

Reguards,

Koen
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Re: re Art battery at Brecourt Manor

Post by Rich »

Koen wrote:That Battalion was commanded by Major Hugo Messerschmidt right?
Yes.
I'm a bit confused where the sturm battalion was operating, and where 1057th regiment was operating. Probably the only question remains, and that is, what german units defended the Merdret river. I know the Panzer battalion 100 operated there but not sure when they'd arrived.

Only one element of 1058, probably the third or second battallion was defending north of st mere eglise.
Hi Koen,

You need to get a good map. :D The Sturm-Batallion was deployed in two distinct groups, headquarters and 1. Kp. northeast of Valognes and the rest around La Haye-du-Puits, west of Carentan. As far as 91. Inf.-Div. goes, it was deployed as follows, including units attached to it:

LXXXIV A.K.-Reserve
91. Inf.-Div. (LL)
Gefechtsstand – Chateau Haut-Picauville (6 kilometers southwest of St. Mére Eglise)
Kdr: Generalmajor Wilhelm Falley
Ia: Oberstleutnant i.G. Bickel
Ib: Major i.G. Bartuzat
Ic: Oberleutnant d.R. Werner
IIa: Major Rüh
Inf.-Div.-Nachr.-Abtl. 191
Kdr: Hauptmann Günter Buchreihs
Nachshub-Btl. 191
Verwaltungs-Btl. 191
Sanitäts-Btl. 191
Veterinär-Kp. 191
Feldpostamt 191
Gren.-Regt. 1057
Gefechtsstand – on the road 2 kilometers west of St. Sauveur le Vicomte
Kdr: Oberst Sylvester von Saldern
I. Btl.
Gefechtsstand – chateau 2.5 kilometers northeast of La Haye du Puits
1.-4. Kp.
II. Btl.
Gefechtsstand – Farm St. Anne (3.2 kilometers southeast of
Bricquebec)
5.-8. Kp.
III. Btl.
Gefechtsstand – the St. Sauveur le Vicomte-Portbail road at the fork
400 meters northwest of the last “e” (on the map) of Besneville
9.-12. Kp.
13. (IG) Kp.
14. (Pz.Jg.) Kp.
Gren.-Regt. 1058
Gefechtsstand – St. Cyr (4 kilometers southeast of Valognes)
Kdr: Oberst Kurt Beigang
I. Btl.
Gefechtsstand – Le Haut Gelay (1 kilometer northwest of Montebourg)
1.-4. Kp.
II. Btl.
Gefechtsstand – La Jardinerie (5 kilometers northwest of Montebourg)
5.-8. Kp.
III. Btl.
Gefechtsstand – St.-Come-du-Mont
9.-12. Kp.
13. (IG) Kp. – St.-Mère-Èglise
14. (Pz.Jg.) Kp. – St.-Come-d- Mont
Art.-Regt. 191
Gefechtsstand – La Ligue (2 kilometers northeast of St. Sauveur le Vicomte)
Kdr: Oberstleutnant Heinrich Kiewitt
I. Btl. (four 10.5cm le.FH each)
Gefechtsstand – Blandamour (4 kilometers northwest of St. Sauveur le
Vicomte)
1. Bttr. – the St. Sauveur le Vicomte-Portbail road at the fork 400
meters northwest of the last “e” (on the map) of Besneville
2. Bttr. – Farm St. Anne (3.2 kilometers southeast of Bricquebec)
3. Bttr. – St.-Come-d- Mont?
II. Btl. (four 10.5cm le.FH each)
Gefechtsstand – Bois d’Etenolon (4 kilometers northeast of La Haye du
Puits)
4. Bttr. – St.-Mère-Èglise
5. Bttr. – La Jardinerie (5 kilometers northwest of Montebourg)
6. Bttr. – St.-Come-d- Mont?
III. Btl. (four 10.5cm le.FH each)
Gefechtsstand – château 2.5 kilometers northeast of La Haye du Puits
7. Bttr. – chateau 2.5 kilometers northeast of La Haye du Puits
8. Bttr. – attached to Fs.Jg.-Regt. 6
9. Bttr. – Chateau Haut-Picauville (6 kilometers southwest of St. Mére
Eglise)
Füs.-Kp. 191 – Chateau Haut-Picauville (6 kilometers southwest of St. Mére Eglise)
Pz.Jg.-Kp. 191
Kdr: Oberleutnant Reimer
Pi.-Btl. 191
Gefechtsstand – Chateau Haut-Picauville (6 kilometers southwest of St. Mére Eglise)
Kdr: Leutnant Bonecamp
1.-2. Kp.
Feld-Ers.-Btl. 191
Gefechtsstand – Blosville
Kdr: Oberleutnant Witte
Art.Regt.-Stab z.b.V. 621
Gefechtsstand – Valognes
Kdr: Oberstleutnant Hermann Seidel
Art.Abtl. 456
Gefechtsstand – Negreville
1. Bttr. (four 12.2cm K (r))
2. and 3. Bttr. (four 15.2cm KH 433 (r) each)
Art.-Abtl.457
Gefechtsstand – Quettetot
1. Bttr. (four 12.2cm K (r))
2. and 3. Bttr. (four 15.2cm KH 433 (r) each)
s.Art.-Bttr. 660 (17cm K?)
Fs.Jg.-Regt. 6
Gefechtsstand. – 1 kilometer north of Gerville (4 kilometers southeast of La Haye du Puit)
Kdr.: Major Freiherr Freidrich-August von der Heydte
I. Btl
Gefechtsstand – north edge of the Foret du Mont Castre (5 kilometers
east of La Haye du Puits)
Kdr: Hauptmann Emil Priekschat
1.-4. Kp.
II. Btl.
Gefechtsstand – railroad crossing on the Lessey-Périers road 1
kilometer southeast of Lessay
Kdr: Major Rolf Mager
5.-8. Kp.
III. Btl
Gefechtsstand – 3 kilometers southwest of Carentan just south of the
Carentan-Périers road
Kdr: Hauptmann Horst Trebes
9.-12. Kp.
12. Kp. – St-Georges-de-Bohon
13. (s.Gr.-Werf.) Kp. (nine 12cm mortars)
14. (Pz.Jg.) Kp. (four 7.5cm s.Pak)
15. (Pi.) Kp.
16. (Radf.) Kp.
17. (Flak) Kp.
18. (Kraftfahr) Kp.
19. (Versorgung) Kp.
20. (Feld-Ers.) Kp.
Pz.-A.u.E.-Abtl. 100
Gefechtsstand – Franquetot (4 kilometers northwest of Baupte)
Kdr.: Major Bardtenschlager
1. Kp. – Baupte
2. Kp. – Coigny
3. Kp. – Auvers
tech.-Zug – Carentan

Essentially the division and its attachments were sandwiched between 709. Inf.-Div. defending the eastern coast of the Cotentin and 243. Inf.-Div. defending Cherbourg and the western coast of the Cotentin.

Hope that helps answer your questions.

Rich
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Post by Koen »

Hi Rich,

I hope i'm not asking too much :)

I guess that where their original positions, but how did they react after the allied landing on 6th June, where did they moved?

When the 82nd Airborne landed around the Merderet river, which units defended it? attacked them?

This map describes most of the defended and counter attack positions along the merderet, it also shows the german 91th LL division HQ north of Picauville: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA ... Utah-7.jpg

I somehow know that the Panzer batalion 100 counter attacked and defended the area, i'm not sure where.

Did the Sturm battalion Messerschmidt also operate out here?
Or did the 1057th counter attacked any villages or positions in the north ( La Fiere?)

Another question :)

On this map, it shows some element, kompanie or battalion?
Defending north of st mere eglise. (1058th)

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA ... tah-11.jpg

Did they defend the whole area?


Reguards,

Koen
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