Top Tiger I commanders by # of kills?

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Top Tiger I commanders by # of kills?

Post by mailalan » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:22 pm

I am trying to compile a list of the top Tiger I commanders by number of kills. I am trying to list their total number of kills even if they did not all occur in a Tiger I. The list below is what I have come up with so far. It was taken from another post on another forum but I was not sure which exactly were in Tiger I's. I would be very grateful for any assistance with this list....corrections or additions.
Thanks,
Alan Hamby

Kurt Knispel 168 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503
Otto Carius 150+ kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502
Johannes (Hans) Bolter 139+ kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502
Michael Wittman 138 kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101
Paul Egger 113 kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 102
Arno Giesen 111 kills 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2
Heinz Rohndorf 106 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503
Heinz Gartner 103 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503
Karl Koener 100+ kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503
Albert Kerscher 100+ kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502
Balthazar (Bobby) Woll 100+ kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101
Helmut Wendorff 84 kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101
Will Fey 80+ kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 102
Eric Litztke 76 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 509
Wilhelm Knauth 68 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 505
Karl Bromann 66 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503
Konrad Weinert 59 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503
Karl Heinz Warmbrunn 57 kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101
Heinz Kling 51 kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101
Heinz Kramer 50+ kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502
Alfredo Carpaneto 50+ kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502
Oberleutnant Mausberg 50+ kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 505
Johann Muller 50 kills schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502
Jurgen Brandt 47 kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101
Franz Staudegger 22+ kills schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:55 am

You can add at Wilhelm Knauth a bit, Alan :wink:
22.10.1944 Bestätigung des 101. Panzerabschusses
See:

Knauth-Thread on AHF

:beer:

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Post by mailalan » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:21 am

Hello Jan-Hendrik!
Yes I have already corrected his score and added his picture. Like you I was also contacted by Dr.Klaus-Wilhelm Knauth. He is a very nice fellow and I was honored to get to correspond with him.

I also added the picture of Rondorf that you sent me a while back.

Now if I could only find pictures of Walter Schroif and Arno Giesen and Konrad Weinert.

Regards
- Alan

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:38 am

Greetings, Alan:
He is a very nice fellow and I was honored to get to correspond with him.
Hes is, indeed, absolutly fine 8)
Konrad Weinert
Sorrowly still no success in finding an identified pic of him... :?:

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Post by HeinrichFrey » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:05 am

Hello Mai!
I think, my father-in-law Reinhold Thomaschek is missing in your list with about 30 cracked soviet tanks with his tank in a wiking unit.
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Matthias
Best Regards
Matthias

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Post by Epaminondas » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:17 am

Tiger commanders, not panzer commanders.

Wiking never had organic tigers.

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Post by HeinrichFrey » Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:47 pm

Yes Sir!
Panzer IV at Operation Donnerschlag. But he shot several Shermans in France with the "HJ", where my father served in 44. And in the Ardennes late 44 they got some more.
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Matthias
Edit: I think they had Panthers
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Post by Imad » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:52 am

Hello
I noticed Knispel, Carius, and Bolter all three outscored Wittman, and yet Wittman is always touted as the top German Panzer ace. Is this a case of Nazi propaganda overinflating the achievements of the Waffen SS?
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:06 am

Is this a case of Nazi propaganda overinflating the achievements of the Waffen SS?
Yes! :roll:

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Post by michael kenny » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:11 am

I think it is a case of German propaganda inflating the whole 'Ace' system.

In The East in 1943 the Germans reduced their own kill claims by 33% before collating them for intelligence on Russian losses.
In 1944-45 this was increased to a 50% reduction.
Kill claims for Normandy are also known to be inflated.
Now I never see this taken into account when these 'kills' are tabulated.

It stands to reason then that the 'list of kills' is greatly in excess of reality.

No one would dream of posting the raw claims of Allied tankers because they understand the overclaim problem. It seems there is no such caution over German claims.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:15 am

Mike, it is a simple mistake of definition...

a "kill" for a tanker is, even in modern Bundeswehr not what you would take as "write-off", but as "mission kill" in modern terms.

A "kill" (stupid term indeed), or better "Abschuß" was counted when the enemy tank got immobile or abandonded on the battle field, nothing more.

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Post by michael kenny » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:42 am

That of course would mean Allied 'kills' should be increased significantly.

One example would be several hundred Tiger 'kills' in Normandy alone.

Another would have 503 with 30+ Tigers 'killed' on 18/7/44.

I know what you are saying but the majority of people repeating these high claims do not and simply believe thay are all confirmed kills.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:46 am

Sorry, I can just tell it from the tanker's view, not from the point of postwar writers who thought that they "knew" something :wink:

And that's exactly why the term "kill" disturbs me as it simply does not fit as translation for german "Abschuß" .

I think most ones simply thought they could transfer the Luftwaffe Abschuß recognition system 1:1 to the tankers.

:[]

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Post by Imad » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:03 pm

Michael Kenny -
I don't get it. You say German "kill" claims were reduced by 33% and then by 50% and in the same sentence you say the kill claims were inflated. Could you clarify please?
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Post by michael kenny » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:10 pm

The list of 'kills' used to compile the ace list is the raw figure BEFORE the reductions were applied.

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