OK thanks for clarifying. And this was different from the Allied system?michael kenny wrote:The list of 'kills' used to compile the ace list is the raw figure BEFORE the reductions were applied.
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Sorry, Mike, taht's nonsenseThe list of 'kills' used to compile the ace list is the raw figure BEFORE the reductions were applied.
Then how did Wittmann get credited with 20+ kills for Villers Bocage when he never even saw that many Allied tanks?Jan-Hendrik wrote:
There you mix up the kill claims reported by staffs to higher commands with the recognition of individual kills of crews which were only counted if they were confirmed by at least their KpChef....no confirmation, no Abschuß ...
And the evidence for this underclaim would be confirmed by German claims being lower than actual losses I suppose. An example where this happened would be useful.By the way, as Tigers were too often only employed in small number, platoon level, to help the infantery I rather tend to say the numbers above are only the lowest esteminations, as there was too often no one around to confirm individual kills (witnesses byID-Officers did not count in this system)...
The system was the same for SS and Heer and in that example the system clearly got the total wrong (by coincidence about 50% wrong)Jan-Hendrik wrote:What and how the Waffen-SS did to create their mystical super heroes is not a point of my interest of my research, as this topic begins to bore me to death
So please stop to use this silly "kill"-terms as it misleads 100% in this discussiion (and, as we both know, there are enough around who are willingly out to jump on this "train to nowhere
Who claimed burnt out wrecks as kills?Little nitpicking: shooting on burnt out wrecks were definitly not taken into account for confirmed Abschüsse, at least not with the german Heer