2.Panzer-Division / Panzeraufklärungs-Abteilung 2

[Piet Duits]

Kelvin,

Don't forget that the strength as of 1.7.1944 is really about the strength between 1-30.6.1944.

[Kelvin]

Hi, your data on 5/2. Panzeraufklarung abteilung have some mistake : 2. Panzer divison did not possess any 7.5 cm I.G.

[Martin Block]

Nonsense, 7,5 cm le.I.G. can easily be found in all monthly status reports of the 2. Pz.Div. from the spring and summer of 1944 in the I./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2, I./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 304, Pz.Felders.Btl. 82 and last but not least the 5./Pz.A.A. 2.

Martin Block

[Kelvin]

But no le I.G. and Schwere I.G found on June 1 1944 as Weber 's Pz AA organization was based upon June 1 1944

[Kelvin]

I mean they did not have towed gun for 7.5 cm and 15 cm I.G. 2. Pz had SP IG in form of sdkfz 251/9 and Grille.

[Roger Griffiths]

I mean they did not have towed gun for 7.5 cm and 15 cm I.G. 2. Pz had SP IG in form of sdkfz 251/9 and Grille.

Kelvin, don't go head to head with Martin, you're bound to lose.

2PD 1Jun44

4/PGR2 2 7,5cm leIG

8/PGR2 3 15cm sIG

4/PGR304 3 7,5cm leIG

8/PGR304 3 15cm sIG

5/PzAA2 2 7,5cm lIG

2PD 1Jul44

4/PGR2 2 7,5cm lIG

8/PGR2 2 15cm lIG

4/PGR304 3 7,5cm sIG

8/PGR304 3 15cm sIG

5/PzAA2 2 7,5cm lIG

Roger

[Martin Block]

Thanks Roger

Martin

[Roger Griffiths]

Hello Martin,

Chuckle. Hope you're well and enjoying life.

Roger

Thanks Roger

Martin

[Hans Weber]

Hello

Kelvin, Weber's June 44 organisation actually does contain 2 le IG. They were in the le IG Zug. "unbekannt" means that I don't have information on vehicle numbers.

5.(schw.)/AA 2
Gruppe Führer 1 x 251/3 1 x 251/11 unbekannt
Pionier Zug 7 x 251/7 unbekannt
schw. Pz. Jg. Zug 5 x 251/1 3 s. Pak unbekannt
IIII. schw. Kan Zug 1 x 251/ 3 6 x 251/9 1 x 251/1 531-538
le IG Zug 4 x 251/1 2 le IG unbekannt

Cheers
Hans

[Kelvin]

I mean they did not have towed gun for 7.5 cm and 15 cm I.G. 2. Pz had SP IG in form of sdkfz 251/9 and Grille.

Kelvin, don't go head to head with Martin, you're bound to lose.

2PD 1Jun44

4/PGR2 2 7,5cm leIG

8/PGR2 3 15cm sIG

4/PGR304 3 7,5cm leIG

8/PGR304 3 15cm sIG

5/PzAA2 2 7,5cm lIG

2PD 1Jul44

4/PGR2 2 7,5cm lIG

8/PGR2 2 15cm lIG

4/PGR304 3 7,5cm sIG

8/PGR304 3 15cm sIG

5/PzAA2 2 7,5cm lIG

Roger

Hi, Roger, was this 7.5 cm le IG was replacement for four 12 cm mortars missing in I/PG regt 2 and I/PG regt 304 ? Panzer Lehr division at the same period ( June 1 1944) possessed four 12 cm mortars instead of two 7.5 cm le IG.

And this 2. Pz division possessed both towed ( 8. kompanie )and SP 15 cm infantry gun ( 13 kompanie) in the same time, was it abnormal depolyment ? Normally pz division had either towed or SP. e.g Pz Lehr only had Grille , did not have 15 cm towed s.IG on June 1 1944

[Roger Griffiths]

No Kelvin,

You've got it all wrong. Both 2PD and Panzer Lehr (But largely wholly armoured) were PD 43's. So LeIG's in PG Btl. heavy coys. was quite correct. Panzer Lehr did not have 12cm mortars. Where on earth did you get that idea? sIG's in 2PD Btl. heavy coys. were luxury add on's.

Establishment PD43 (28Sep43).

Heavy Coy. in Armd. PG Btl. 6 X 251/9, 3 X Pak 40 and 2 X leIG. Heavy Coy. in Mot. PG Btl. 3 X Pak 40 and 4 X 12cm mortars. Heavy Coy. in PzAA 6 X 251/9, 2 X leIG and 3 Pak 40. 9 Flak Coy. SP 12 SP 2cm Flak 10/4. 10 Heavy Gun Coy. 6 X 15cm Grille. 11 PzPi Coy.

Confusion issues. Most Coy/Bttry org. (KStN) dates were 1Nov43. There were no 12cm mortars (Except 4PD had a few at Kursk, Russian?). Only started to be visible after mid 1944. Regimental Coys. invariably 9 IG, 10 PzPi and no Flak Coys. 1 PD did though in autumn of 1943.

Establishment PD44 (15Aug44).

Heavy Coy. in Armd. PG Btl. 6 X 251/9 and 4 12cm mortars. In Mot. PG Btl. 6 X 2cm towed Flak and 4 X 12cm mortars. In PzAA 6 X 251/9 and 6 251/2 (8,1cm mortar). 9 Heavy Gun Coy. 6 X Grille or 4 X 15cm sIG in Mot. PG Btl. 10 PzPi Coy.

Most Coy/Bttry org. 1Apr44.

Roger

[Kelvin]

Hi, Roger, with regard to 12 cm mortar question, I got the ideas from the book Jean Claude Perrigault " Panzer Lehr " , there were four heavy mortar symbols in heavy coy.

Sometimes symbol make me confused. German always presented their OOB with chart and symbols. e.g. the same book said there were two sdkfz 250/7 in Pz Lehr AA 3 & 4 each but in this forum, Mr Hans Weber have presented the complete organization of Pz Lehr AA on June 1 1944, there were four sdkfz 250/7 in the same unit each. As I know, 250/7 had both mortar carriers and ammunition supply carrier, but this is hard to decide how many mortar she actually possess.

BTW, did Panzer Lehr distribution of 75. IG is just same as the 2. Pz, how many actually she had on that day ?

[Roger Griffiths]

They did not go by battalions, KStN went by companies etc. 2PD was reformed as PD43 (KStN 1Nov43) and was more or less reorganized as PD 44 (KstN 1Apr44) during June. Hope my memory is sound, otherwise Piet or Hans or both will tear me to shreds, chuckle. I have not checked my sources, all original of course.

Roger

[WAKEN]

Wow! What a great discussion Google found for me. If I understand the position correctly 2nd Panzer Division, at the beginning of June '44; was organised according to Establishment PD43 (28Sep43).
I'm looking for the detailed KstNs for that establishment and hoping some of you experts can help me out!

Regards,

Neil

[WAKEN]

According to a post in this thread 3. and 4.(Aufkl.)/AA2 had the following AFVs on strength on D-Day:

3.(Aufkl.)/AA 2
Stab 2 x 250/3
I. Zug 8 x 250/1
II. Zug 8 x 250/1
III. Zug 8 x 250/1
IV. Zug 1 x 250/1, 4 x 250/7

4.(Aufkl)./AA 2
Stab 2 x 250/3
I. Zug 8 x 250/1
II. Zug 8 x 250/1
III. Zug 8 x 250/1
IV. Zug 4 x 250/7

I believe that these companies were organised agaisnt KStN.1113 (gp) 1.11.1943. In World War II Day by Day http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/ the authorised strength against this KStN has 1 x 250/8 in each platoon and only 2 x 250/7 in the Gr.W. Gruppe.
Were these companies organised against a different KStN?

Thanks,

Neil