How to research German units?

SRP · Post by **SRP** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:01 pm

Hello

I am currently researching some German Waffen SS units. Ideally I am looking for after action reports or the German equivalent. Right now I am at a loss on where to look for these records. I am not asking anyone to do the work for me but I need some guidance on where and how to ask for the information. Specifically I am looking for information from the 2nd SS Panzer Division and the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division between August 6th 1944 and August 12th 1944 during Operation Luttich. Thank you for any help.

Steve

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:03 pm

Hello!

As you din´t give your location in your profile I don´t know where you come from.
If you are looking for original sources you would have to go to http://www.bundesarchiv.de to get original material which is still left.
As these are very popular units there is lots of secondary literature:

2. SS-Panzer-Division Das Reich
Max Hastings - Das Reich
James Lucas - Das Reich
Gregory L. Mattson - SS Das Reich: The History of the 2nd SS Division 1939-45
Regimentskameradschaft "Deutschland" - Frontkämpfer - hart wie Stahl
Claudius Rupp - Im Feuer gestählt
Philip Vickers - The March of Das Reich
Otto Weidinger - Comrades to the End: The 4th SS Panzer-Grenadier Regiment "Der Führer" 1938 - 1945 The History of a German-Austrian Fighting Unit
Otto Weidinger - Das Reich (5 vol)
Otto Weidinger - Division Das Reich im Bild
Mark C. Yerger - Knights of Steel (2 vol)

17. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Götz von Berlichingen
Helmut Günther - Das Auge der Division.Die Aufklärungsabteilung der SS-Panzergrenadier Division Götz Von Berlichingen
Antonio J. Munoz - Iron Fist: A Combat History of the 17. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Götz von Berlichingen"
Hans Stöber - Die Sturmflut und das Ende (3 Vol)

There is also a edited reprint of the Ia war diary of the 17th but I don´t know if this is still available.

\Christoph

SRP · Post by **SRP** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:46 pm

Thank you for the reply. I live in the USA and while I am taking German classes I cannot speak German, do you know if Das Bundesarchiv have a translation service or at least a way I can order records in English to have them translated here? Unfortunately their English site isn't complete. I appreciate the list of secondary sources, my only concern was this battle seems to be widely over looked despite it's importance in the Normandy campaign (at least from the US perspective) so I am afraid that these sources will over look the battle in the detail I was hoping for. Either way I appreciate your help and will just have to contact Das Bundesarchiv.

Steve

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:06 am

Hello!

The Bundesarchiv will be no help if you cannot go there or know at least exactly the pages you want to have. They dodn´t do any searching etc... for you.

\Christoph

Marie · Post by **Marie** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:12 am

Hi Steve,

I too am interested in researching this unit, esp. from 1943 to the end of the war. I have found a great deal on the 'web' but would like to get more detailed information. My interest is in finding some info concerning one member of this unit and if he might have survived. Is there any way we can share research? -Marie

SvenW · Post by **SvenW** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:01 am

They have not much about this unit: http://www.bundesarchiv.de/bestaende_fi ... chbegriff=

It looks like the most documents were destroyed or they are still in US archives.

@ Marie:
You can not search there for people like you want, if you have no date of death, they had to wait 110 years up from his birth date before they can give informations about persons.

Sven.

Alex Dekker · Post by **Alex Dekker** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:02 pm

If you can read German, check out this: Kriegstagebuch des OKW. For sale on ebay.de. I've paid 25 euro's for it, including posting. Very usefull I think! Worth the money!

Alex

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:40 am

SvenW wrote:They have not much about this unit: http://www.bundesarchiv.de/bestaende_fi ... chbegriff=

It looks like the most documents were destroyed or they are still in US archives.

@ Marie:
You can not search there for people like you want, if you have no date of death, they had to wait 110 years up from his birth date before they can give informations about persons.

Sven.

Hello Sven -

And the myth continues....... I have been working with the microfilmed German military and diplomatic records at the U.S. National Archives since 1977 and spent a month there every summer from 1979 to 1989. I'm also very familiar with the holdings of other U.S. repositories that have World War II material. Additionally, I have made numerous visits to the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg im Breisgau and to the PRO in London. All repeat all captured German records in U.S. custody were returned to Germany during the 1960's. There are no repeat no original German World War II records remaining in U.S. custody except for some so-called Luftgau crashed enemy aircraft case records, and the only reason these were not returned to the FRD was because they concern personal information about American air crew members.

Yet, the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg insists in perpetuating the fiction that the National Archives has hoards of original German records that were never returned to Germany. I can only assume that they do this, and have been doing it for 30+ years now, because it serves as an easy excuse and explanation to placate researchers about why they don't have certain records. The U.S. National Archives has hosted numerous visits to Washington by BA-MA archivists over the years and sponsored large numbers of German scholars. There can be no doubt that the Freiburg staff knows full well that NARA is not holding any original German records and documents.

The bottom line is that if BA-MA Freiburg does not have the records of a particular German WW II military unit, then those records do not exist. In all probability, they were destroyed in the 1944 bombing and burning of the Heeresarchiv in Potsdam or by the unit itself at war's end.

Sadly, once a myth or a rumor gets started, they are almost impossible to stop. They just keep going on, and on, and on.

--Lorenz

SvenW · Post by **SvenW** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:01 am

Hi Lorenz!

You are wrong!

That was my interpretation of a local news paper article.

I never read this at the Bundesarchiv webside. Do you?

... I can only assume that they do this, and have been doing it for 30+ years now, because it serves as an easy excuse and explanation to placate researchers about why they don't have certain records. ...

In my oppinion, that´s bullshit, sorry. If they had to tell lies, isn´t it more simply to call them all burned?

Sven.

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:48 am

Hi Sven -

I never said BA-MA had published this statement or had put it up on their website. It is what they have told countless researchers over the years either in correspondence with them or in person. At least that is what these researchers have told me over the years. There has been frequent mention of this issue on other discussion boards, too.

--Lorenz

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:32 am

My experience of the BAMA was nothing but entirely positive. Freiburg or Koblenz. In fact when visiting the former, Herr Meyer, now Dr.? came out of his office with examples of this and that and said 'Have you seen these?' It was all smiles and nothing was too much trouble, although I did not cause any trouble. If you know what you want, generally, they will tell you whether it exists or not.

It is a miracle anything survived. Adolf ordered destruction of all records. A small example, 116PD feared destruction in Feb/Mch 45 and the then current KTB covering 25Jan to 27Feb45 was entrusted to the Pastor of a village in their area. This was considered the safest way of preserving their record.

As far as I am aware, what is now NARA copied everything they had before returning originals to Federal Germany. The Brits. were also granted same favour by U.S. The Brits. did not copy everything, but a huge amount is in IWM London now.

There is supposed to be a list of BAMA references vs IWM references for same files although I have not been able to trace it.

Roger

eltoddi · Post by **eltoddi** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:56 am

Hi,

I was just scanning through the postings and found your request about info on the Goetz von Behrlichingen Division.

My grandfather was part of that unit at the time of the invasion, so if you have any questions I'll be happy to ask them for you. I am German but live and work in Britain, I'll go back and see my family just before Christmas and I'll be happy to ask grandad about any specifics you might want to know.

I find it amazing how he still remembers the smallest details of his time in the war, but then again if you live through something like that you're not likely to foget it in a hurry...

So let me know if I can help you,

All the Best,

Thorsten

Feldgrau.net

How to research German units?

How to research German units?

Thanks

Götz von Berlichingen research