Did 1st Gebirgs-Division force Lwów to surrender?

[Njorl]

Of course they recaptured Hołosko Małe and Hołosko Wielkie (which automatically opened the way to Składnica Uzbrojenia for them - right?).

Don't ask me if it opened way to Składnica Uzbrojenia. Both were captured on different day than you wrote and not even for 24 hours.

Polish morale near Lwow on 21st of September was far better than German morale in the same area on 20th of September.

I hope you have some proofs to back up this statment. And this as well:

If it comes to morale of the Soviets - morale of ordinary Soviet soldiers was usually low .

I found out that in fact there was more AA ammunition that Włodarczyk states.

Which automatically makes it plausible that there was also more of other types of ammunition - it shows that Włodarczyk is not fully reliable.

Is Grzelak with food supplies for 6 weeks "fully reliable"?

PP 53 and PP 55 arrived at Lwow on September 18th, at noon.

18th of September at noon = 17th of September at noon

What do you mean?

I don't know the original name of this regulations, but they are ot be found in Nadzwyczajne przepisy do zarządzeń dotyczących zabezpieczenia, 9 sierpnia 1939 r., ustęp 5a, k. 21-22., issued by OKH.

Could you quote this source? Because I can see that it is Polish, but regarding German system of capturing prisoners. Maybe the author made some mistake (for example in translation, etc.)?

Yes, the title is in Polish because I came across its translated name. Mistake in translation? Maybe (but rather unlikely), but where?

Regards,
Michał Jungiewicz

[Domen123]

and waiting it out a little bit.

6 weeks is "a little bit" ?

I hope you have some proofs to back up this statment.

Read about morale of the Germans near Lwow.

Then ask your question on your own.

Was morale of the Germans near Lwow also "good"?

The answer is - no.

Yes, the title is in Polish because I came across its translated name. Mistake in translation? Maybe (but rather unlikely), but where?

So please quote it if you can.

What do you mean?

What do I mean?

I mean it was during the night from 17th to 18th.

Is Grzelak with food supplies for 6 weeks "fully reliable"?

Grzelak is usually a reliable source of information.

And this as well:

Soviet POWs captured by the Poles from SGO "Polesie" joined ranks of SGO "Polesie" and were fighting together with it until capitulation, despite the Poles allowed the Soviets to return to their comrades - but they didn't want to do it.

This shows us clearly how "good" morale of ordinary Soviet soldier was...

Check also my posts here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=45

Quotation from my post:

Description of the Soviet attack on Fort Tyszyca in 1939:

I have an impression that the Soviets were attacking it under the strong influence of Vodka or other alcohol (or under influence of Komissars in their rears): ??

Memories of plutonowy Józef Strączek, commander of fortification company “Tyszyca”, commander of Fort “Tyszyca”:

“… I was observing outskirts of our postion and I saw, that a big unit of Soviet soldiers is marching in a distance of around 1200 metres towards Wyręby settlement. They were going like “a herd of rams”, in long coats, some of them had got helms, some other had got sharp hats with star. Rifles – long – with “skewers”, they were marching like during military exercises - not insured at all. I ordered to open fire by HMG number 1 (short series – to try efficiency of fire); I saw that confusion started in the column, but they were continuoing their march, because units marching behind them were pressing on. I order further firing by both HMGs. The result was terrible – milling crowd and pressing on from the rears soldiers, who – not paying attention on lying soldiers – were marching on and through them.

Small unit strayed from the column and started to move in my direction towards “field / area of absolute firepower” – it was – while it ran up to the boundary of fire – literally “mowed down” by series of HMG.

While continuoing fire in some moment I heard many single artillery explosions and what I saw in outskirts was literally a slaughter – it was plutonowy, commander of the neighbouring object – with direct artillery fire he was striking the Soviet unit.”

And here something about the Soviet PoWs captured in the battles of Parczew and Milanów and Jabłoń:

After the battle of Jabłoń (29th of September 1939), Polish battalion from 82nd Infantry Regiment (60th Infantry Division “Kobryn” under command of colonel Adam Epler) captured 50 Russian PoWs – colonel Adam Epler reported:

“During investigation prisoners said that before they went on war to Poland, they had been said that they were going on military exercises. When they passed the border of Poland, they were said, that they must go on war with the Nazis. Only one day before the Soviet attack at Milanów, they were informed by their commanders, that they “are here to participate in the action against reactionary, bourgeois bands of Polish officers”.”

After investigation and taking back their weapons, the Polish commander declared, that tomorrow they will be released and they are allowed to join either to their own forces or to the Germans, who are – of course – their allies. Then, Soviet PoWs started to beg the Poles, not to send them back to their forces, and rather to let them join the Polish army.

Colonel Epler: “They were incorporated to our ranks. They were fighting in our units to the end on 6th of October 1939, they were devoted and faithful companions. Together with us they went to the German captivity and it was the moment when their real tragedy started.”

On the next day – 30th of September – in the battle of Milanów and Parczew Polish 179th Infantry Regiment captured 60 Soviet PoWs.

Sergeant T. Grzeszkiewicz relation:

“Prisoners were used as guards and drivers in our stocks, because they were afraid of coming back to their forces, despite they were offered to do this”.

Don't ask me if it opened way to Składnica Uzbrojenia. Both were captured on different day than you wrote

It wasn't on different day (what day are you talking about - 15.09?) - it was just on both days.

Regards!
Peter

[Njorl]

and waiting it out a little bit.

6 weeks is "a little bit" ?

I don't know what you're referring to. Could you quote a broader passage?

I hope you have some proofs to back up this statment.

Read about morale of the Germans near Lwow.

Then ask your question on your own.

Was morale of the Germans near Lwow also "good"?

The answer is - no.

You made a statement, you are to provide source to back it up. This is the way it works here. In previous posts you quoted memoirs regarding situation (not morale!) of only one regiment of 1. GebirgsDiv (and we are generalising here!). What about other units?

Yes, the title is in Polish because I came across its translated name. Mistake in translation? Maybe (but rather unlikely), but where?

So please quote it if you can.

Quote what? I only know its name in Polish and don't even want to try to translate it back into German.

What do you mean?

What do I mean?

I mean it was during the night from 17th to 18th.

18th of September at noon = 17th of September at noon

Domen, I suggest you re-read your posts.

Is Grzelak with food supplies for 6 weeks "fully reliable"?

Grzelak is usually a reliable source of information.

I have no reason not to rely on Włodarczyk either.

Soviet POWs captured by the Poles from SGO "Polesie" joined ranks of SGO "Polesie" and were fighting together with it until capitulation, despite the Poles allowed the Soviets to return to their comrades - but they didn't want to do it.

One instance does not make whole.

Regards,
MJU

[Domen123]

I don't know what you're referring to. Could you quote a broader passage?

I'm referring to what mightythor wrote (on the previous page), not you .

Quote what? I only know its name in Polish and don't even want to try to translate it back into German.

Ok.

What about other units?

I was writing about 1. Gebirgs-Division, not other units.

In previous posts you quoted memoirs regarding situation (not morale!)

If this soldier told the Poles (his enemies !!) about their hard situation and if he was exhausted, it automatically tells us that his morale wasn't very good.

He was not defending his homeland - he was near Lwow far away from his home and he didn't like it (and told his enemies about that !!).

You made a statement, you are to provide source to back it up.

I provided my source.

But you still did not provide your source for your statement that Polish morale was in general "good" and in Group Grodno a bit worse.

Grzelak writes that soldiers were surprised that Langner decided to hand over the city to the Soviets and to end resistance - they wanted to fight (even against the Soviets).

Many officers were also against this decision (including commander of 35. Infantry Division).

I have no reason not to rely on Włodarczyk either.

Yes, but you have some reasons not to rely on Langner.

And it seems that Włodarczyk simply quoted what Langner said.

18th of September at noon = 17th of September at noon

Domen, I suggest you re-read your posts.

Michał, I wrote:

on 17th of September defence of Lwow was reinforced by some new units - including two armoured trains - No. 53 "Smialy" and No. 55 "Bartosz Glowacki", [...]

And you wrote that it was "not on 17th but on 18th at noon".

While in fact 18th at noon = 17th !!!

You do not know if these trains arrived in Lwow at 23:59 or at 00:01 !

Regards
Peter

[Njorl]

I don't know what you're referring to. Could you quote a broader passage?

I'm referring to what mightythor wrote (on the previous page), not you .

Ok.

What about other units?

I was writing about 1. Gebirgs-Division, not other units.

No, you were writing about German morale, ie. - as I understand it - morale of no specific unit but the morale of all German forces around Lwow on Spetember 20th. I suggest you should pick words more carefully.

If this soldier told the Poles (his enemies !!) about their hard situation and if he was exhausted, it automatically tells us that his morale wasn't very good.

So we know, that only his morale wasn't estimated as high. Don't let's generalise.

You made a statement, you are to provide source to back it up.

I provided my source.

Where can I read Skrzypek's memoirs?

But you still did not provide your source for your statement that Polish morale was in general "good" and in Group Grodno a bit worse.

If you need it now (you didn't need to know it earlier): Wojciech Włodarczyk, Lwów 1939, pp. 186-187 (he quotes gen. Langner and ppłk. Ryzinski).

Grzelak writes that soldiers were surprised that Langner decided to hand over the city to the Soviets and to end resistance - they wanted to fight (even against the Soviets).

So writes Włodarczyk.

Michał, I wrote:

on 17th of September defence of Lwow was reinforced by some new units - including two armoured trains - No. 53 "Smialy" and No. 55 "Bartosz Glowacki", [...]

And you wrote that it was "not on 17th but on 18th at noon".

While in fact 18th at noon = 17th !!!

You do not know if these trains arrived in Lwow at 23:59 or at 00:01 !

As a matter of fact I do know.

Regards,
Michał Jungiewicz

[Gebirgsjaeger]

By the way - this is a little bit off-topic, I know - does anyone of you know of good books about the Battle of Lemberg in either English or Italian? Those are the only two languages that I can read in other than German. Thanks!

[Njorl]

There is a (whole?) chapter devoted to this battle in our fellow forum member Richard Hargreaves' Blitzkrieg Unleashed. And there are some more passages in German wartime books eg. Wir zogen gegen Polen or Von Lemberg bis Bordeaux to quote only those that first came to my mind.

Please see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=23246&hilit=von+le ... s+bordeaux

Regards,
Michał Jungiewicz

[Gebirgsjaeger]

Thanks!

[Domen123]

Where can I read Skrzypek's memoirs?

His memories are titled "Podkarpackim szlakiem września", published in 1986.

[Njorl]

Thanks, Domen.

Regards,
Michał Jungiewicz

[AHK]

A little off subject, but does anyone have details of the "VOLKS" title given to the Division late in the war. How and why it was given, very few other units other than infantry divisions were given the "VOLKS" titlt.
Thanks,
AHK

[Domen123]

I can see that Jason Pipes did not change the false information that he previously posted, and probably did not even bother about reading this thread.

That's a real pity.

I would also like to refer to other funny statements of Jason Pipes from this article:

http://www.feldgrau.com/GebDiv.php?ID=1

So fierce in fact was the fighting leading up to and including the battles for Lemberg that the Division lost 243 men KIA and 400 WIA

What he quoted are casualties inside the city of Lwów and on the outskirts of the city only - not during the fighting leading to and during the whole battle for Lwów (which is a much wider concept).

During these combats (together with combats inside Lwów) the division lost 484 KIA and MIA, 918 WIA and 608 sick (feet and trench diseases) according to 1.Geb.Div. Ia Nr. 1855/39 geh, 20.10.1939, "Erfahrungsbericht über den Einsatz in Polen", NARA T315, R35, F0003 and 503 KIA and WIA, 918 wounded and 608 sick according to Kaltenegger.

an amazingly large number

So I wonder how would he call casualties of such divisions like for example 18. Inf.Div., 30. Inf.Div., 4. Pz.Div., 28. Inf.Div., 24. Inf.Div., 10. Inf.Div., 13. Inf.Div. (mot.), 29. Inf.Div. (mot.), 8. Inf.Div. and 27. Inf.Div. - as each of these divisions suffered higher casualties than 1. Geb.Div, which lost 484 - 503 killed and 918 wounded.

an amazingly large number considering the view that Poland is thought of as a virtual German walk-over.

By whom Poland is thought of as a virtual German walk-over?

Maybe by those who know nothing about the Polish Campaign except so called "knowledge" from Discovery "documents".

Certainly not by German soldiers who participated in the Polish campaign.

It seems that Jason Pipes did not read such publications like for example:

"Verlorene Siege" by Erich von Manstein, "Panzer Zwischen Warschau und Atlantik" by von Kielmansegg, "Panzer greifen an" by Kürsten, "Wir marschieren für das Reich. Deutsche Jugend im Kampferlebnis des polnischen Feldzuges" by Werner Flack, "So Lebten und Starben Sie: Das Buch vom Panzer-Regiment 35" by H. Schaufler or memories of Oberstleutnant Eberbach - commander of Panzer-Regiment 35. - for example chapters titled "Sturmfahrt auf Warschau", "Die Vernichtungsschlacht an der Bzura" or "In Warschau abgeschossen" - not even mentioning - equally excellent - Polish publications about the Polish Campaign.

[Domen123]

If it comes to 1. Gebirgs-Division - casualties of this division in Polenfeldzug in relation to length of the campaign were the highest - in other words - casualties of this division per day of the campaign in Polenfeldzug were higher than its casualties per day of the campaign in all other campaigns of this division:

---------

Polenfeldzug: 5 IX - 21 IX 1939 = 17 days - but on 5 IX only 99. Geb.Rgt. started operations in Poland, on 7 IX 100. Geb.Rgt. started operations and the rest of the division joined as late as on 8 IX 1939:

"Die 1. Gebirgs-Division hatte auf dem Polenfeldzug 23 Offiziere [according to Kaltenegger - 42], 69 Unteroffiziere und 313 Mannschaften verloren. 42 Offiziere, 150 Unteroffziere und 726 Mannschaften wurden verwundet, 8 Unteroffiziere und 71 Mannschaften galten als vermisst."

Casualties per day of the campaign = 82,5 - 83,6
KIA and MIA per day of the campaign = 28,5 - 29,6

---------

Westfeldzug: 11 V - 25 VI 1940 = 45 days:

"Die Gesamtverluste der 1. Gebirgsdivision beliefen sich auf 1.826 Mann. Davon waren 17 Offiziere, 76 Unteroffiziere und 353 Mannschaften gefallen, 47 Offiziere, 209 Unteroffiziere und 1.106 Mannschaften verwundet, 1 Offizier, 3 Unteroffiziere und 14 Mannschaften vermisst."

Casualties per day of the campaign = 40,6
KIA and MIA per day of the campaign = 10,3

---------

Jugoslawienfeldzug: 6 IV - 17 IV 1941 = 12 days:

"Im Jugoslawienfeldzug waren 1 Unteroffizier und 5 Mannschaften gefallen, 3 Unteroffiziere und 6 Mannschaften wurden verwundet."

Casualties per day of the campaign = 1,25
KIA and MIA per day of the campaign = 0,5

---------

Russia in period: 22 VI 1941 - 31 XII 1942 = 192 days:

"Die Gesamtverluste der Division betrugen bis zum 31. Dezember 1942 13.227 Mann. Davon waren 141 Offiziere, 457 Unteroffiziere und 2.651 Mannschaften gefallen, 288 Offiziere, 1.218 Unteroffiziere und 8.205 Mannschaften verwundet, sowie 1 Offizier, 14 Unteroffiziere und 252 Mannschaftsdienstgrade vermisst."

Casualties per day of the campaign = 69,2
KIA and MIA per day of the campaign = 18,3

---------

I also recommend reading the discussion in this thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1332367

[Domen123]

Marschweg of the division in Poland:



Casualties of the division provided above include casualties of its 99. Geb.Rgt.:

Casualties of Gebirgsjäger Regiment 99. in period 12.09.1939 - 20.09.1939 - Killed in Action (KIA) only:

Grodek [Jagielloński]:

16/9/39 - 3
17/9/39 - 3

Lemberg:

12/9/39 - 5
13/9/39 - 21
14/9/39 - 4
15/9/39 - 2
16/9/39 - 13
17/9/39 - 7
18/9/39 - 1
19/9/39 - 20
20/9/39 - 10

Holosko:

16/9/39 - 7
17/9/39 - 3
19/9/39 - 8

Zboiska:

16/9/39 - 1
17/9/39 - 4
19/9/39 - 2
20/9/39 - 2

But:

This is not a complete casualty list for the regiment; it counts dead in the Polish campaign up to the end of November (although those after 20/9 died in hospital). There are no fatalities listed before September 12.

This regiment was fighting in Poland since 05.09.1939 - and certainly suffered fatal casualties also before 12.09.1939.

So it seems that even the data about divisional casualties in Poland provided by me in posts above is not fully complete.

[Domen123]

More about the German attempt of forcing Lwow to surrender writes W. Włodarkiewicz in his "Lwów 1939", page 185:

"On 21.09.1939, despite the fact that German units had already started withdrawal from their positions near Lemberg, delayed by the necessity of evacuation of wounded, a German messenger arrived at Grojecka street and once again proposed the capitulation of the city. In recognition of stubborn defense of the city, German side offered to salute the defenders and to allow Polish officers to retain their side arms. The German messenger declared, that the capitulation of the Polish crew to the Germans means remaining in Europe, while the capitulation to the Red Army would mean passing through to Asia forever. It seems that it was a question of prestige for the Germans to capture the city - which had been vainly besieged by their forces since 12.09.1939 - at least for a while."

Primary sources:

- Gen. Władysław Langner, "Ostatnie dni obrony Lwowa (1939)" ("The last days of the defence of Lwow (1939)"),
- account of ppor. rez. Witold Lis-Olszewski, officer of 62. Light Artillery Battalion,

There also exists a photo showing ppor. rez. Witold Lis-Olszewski discussing with 2 German messengers in Lwow.