Did 1st Gebirgs-Division force Lwów to surrender?

[Musashi]

Jason Pipes, you claim 1st Gebirgs-Division foced Lwów to surrender on September 21st 1939. Please change this information in history of this unit, because its a bullshit. The Poles defending Lwów surrended the city to the Soviets, they had not wanted to surrend it to Germans before. Most of the officers have been exterminated in Katyn, but its other matter.
LWÓW HAS NOT SURRENDER TO GERMANS.

[John W. Howard]

Nice Manners Mushashi!!!

[Ritter]

Mushashi,

You talk as if you were there.....curva!
Mind your manners!

Ritter

[Musashi]

OK guys, you are right, but I hate a falsehood. If somebody omits facts its not so big problem, but if somebody changes them its very irritable.
I found it in the history of 1st Gebirgs-Division:

The capture of the city would likely have been bloody for the Division though, and as a result of the fierce fighting at the approaches to the city, the Poles defending it insisted upon surrendering only (sic!) to the men of the 1.Gebirgs-Division as a sign of their mutal respect (sic!). This took place on September 21st, 1939.

Sorry guys, there were two false informations - Neither Lwów surrended to the Germans nor there was a respect.
The Poles did EVERYTHING not to surrender the city to the Germans. They waited for the Soviets and delaying the surrending as long as possible. The city surrended to the Soviets on September 22nd 1939. So even the date is incorrect. It gives total three false informations.
I hate lies written on serious pages, many people take this site as a source and copy such lies. Please change this information.

[Tom Houlihan]

Musashi, I have come to respect your posts, but I'm surprised at this one. Would it not be more favorable to give Jason the benefit of the doubt. I hardly think that the man would willingly lie on something like this. Could it not be that he had some bad information?

[Der Untermensch]

Jason Pipes, you claim 1st Gebirgs-Division foced Lwów to surrender on September 21st 1939. Please change this information in history of this unit, because its a bullshit. The Poles defending Lwów surrended the city to the Soviets, they had not wanted to surrend it to Germans before. Most of the officers have been exterminated in Katyn, but its other matter.
LWÓW HAS NOT SURRENDER TO GERMANS.

czlowieku, wez ty nie rob durnia z siebie i z nas wszystkich. To nie jest forum onetu ani wyborczej.

[Musashi]

Jason Pipes, you claim 1st Gebirgs-Division foced Lwów to surrender on September 21st 1939. Please change this information in history of this unit, because its a bullshit. The Poles defending Lwów surrended the city to the Soviets, they had not wanted to surrend it to Germans before. Most of the officers have been exterminated in Katyn, but its other matter.
LWÓW HAS NOT SURRENDER TO GERMANS.

czlowieku, wez ty nie rob durnia z siebie i z nas wszystkich. To nie jest forum onetu ani wyborczej.

Przeciez to prawda. Wiec masz na mysli forme przekazu

[Gebirgsjaeger]

Musashi,

can you give us any sources that made you make your statements saying that the city of Lemberg was captured not by the Wehrmacht 1. Gebirgsdivision but by Soviet forces?

Since your first post regarding this matter I´ve studied all the information available to me and have never found anything indicating that the city was captured by troops of the Red Army.

In the early morning hours of September 21st, 1939 the Polish forces spotted Soviet Army tanks approaching the city and Soviet Infantry reconassaince teams as well.

The city was almost encircled on oll other sides by the German Wehrmacht. The German 7. Infanteriedivision blocked all entrances to the city from the north, the 2. Gebirgsdivision and 57. Infanteriedivision from the south-east and south and the glorious 1. Gebirgsdivision had reached the western outskirts of the city from the west.

There was only a small corridor left to the east and that´s where Soviet troops where spotted.

During the noon hours of the same day the commander of Polish forces in Lemberg realized that further restistance would be senseless and surrendered the city to the Kommandeur of 1. Gebirgsdivision.

Due to the pre-arranged demarcation zone Lemberg was positioned in the Soviet sector of Poland. So the Wehrmacht units withdrew and 1. Gebirgsdivision´s last units left the city by September 25th, 1939.

Musashi,

I know that many Poles still dislike us Germans because we invaded your country. My wife is from Poland and I have visited the country often. I felt that most Poles don´t like Germans.

So if you wish that Lemberg wasn´t taken by the Wehrmacht but surrendered to the Soviet Army - just keep on thinking so if it makes you feel better. Maybe you´ve read this in some book of the Jaruszelsky era?

I don´t know if it would have been very good for the garrision of Lemberg to surrender to the Soviets. Just remember Katyn...

Finally I want to remember my grand-uncle right here and right now, who fought as an ordinary soldier during the 1939 Poland campaign with the Gebrigsjaegerregiment 98, 1. Gebirgsdivision.

[Musashi]

can you give us any sources that made you make your statements saying that the city of Lemberg was captured not by the Wehrmacht 1. Gebirgsdivision but by Soviet forces?

I will try to find something. I have many sources in Polish, but I am not sure whether you will believe them and besides you will not able to read them...
Eh, wait... I forget about your wife - she knows Polish

The city was almost encircled on oll other sides by the German Wehrmacht. The German 7. Infanteriedivision blocked all entrances to the city from the north, the 2. Gebirgsdivision and 57. Infanteriedivision from the south-east and south and the glorious 1. Gebirgsdivision had reached the western outskirts of the city from the west.
There was only a small corridor left to the east and that´s where Soviet troops where spotted.

That is true.

I know that many Poles still dislike us Germans because we invaded your country. My wife is from Poland and I have visited the country often. I felt that most Poles don´t like Germans.

Yes, many Poles dislike Germans, but the situation is getting better. According to the latest soundings about 20-25% Poles dislike Germans, 20-25% likes them and 50-60% is neutral. Is it so bad I can say the same about Germans - many of them dislike Poles. I am completely sure more Germans dislike Poles, than Poles dislike Germans.
My opinion about the Germans is neutral. The Germans (SS) killed my grandma's brother, because he was a scout. It was the only reason.
My grandma had to work under protest in Germany (near Halberstadt)during the WW II. She says there were various Germans, good and bad, not all of them were bad.
I live 19 km from the German border and my opinion is the same - the people are various regardless of their nationality. I have a few friends in Germany. My contacts with Germans are positive. I am a member of Axishistory Forum and I have a few friends from Germany there. There was one idiot who provoked me, but he was banned. One stupid man comparing to a few hundreds of OK or neutral guys is really nothing.
I know a German who lived in my house before WW II. He have been a pilot and was flying Me-109G. He was shot down near Stalino (the present Donietsk) and spent a few years in the Soviet captivity. We meet one another a few times in year. He lives in Berlin now, near Tegel airfield.

I don´t know if it would have been very good for the garrision of Lemberg to surrender to the Soviets. Just remember Katyn...

I have writen, they had been killed in Katyn, see in my previous post.

Finally I want to remember my grand-uncle right here and right now, who fought as an ordinary soldier during the 1939 Poland campaign with the Gebrigsjaegerregiment 98, 1. Gebirgsdivision.

Could your uncle confirm, 1. Gebirgsdivision fought in encirclement and its supplies (ammo, food) were completely exhausted, but the Poles didn't know about it? I was watching a program in TV and a German soldier said the division had received airdrops to survive.
Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
Chris

[Musashi]

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1939/sep39/22sep39.htm [English - see the first sentence] :)
http://www.wargamer.com/ww2timeline/1939eastern.asp [English, press ctrl+f and find a phrase "lvov"]

Friday 22nd : Germany and Russia agree on partition of Poland. 217,000 Polish troops who are fighting against the Red Army surrender at Lvov. The NKVD begins rounding up thousands of Polish officers and deporting them to Russia where they will be liquidated a year later in the forest of Katyn near Smolensk.

In Polish: http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hitler/1977/ ... er/36.html
Ask your wife, its clearly written, Lwów surrended to the Soviets.

Juz rano 19 IX na rogatke Lyczakowska przybyli oficerowie Armii Czerwonej i zaproponowali rozmowy z dowództwem obrony Lwowa. Langner wyslal na pertraktacje plk. dypl. Bronislzwa Rakowskiego i pplk Kazimierza Ryzinskiego. Rozmowy toczyly sie w Winnikach. Armie Czerwona reprezentowal dowódca brygady czolgów, plk Iwanow, który poczatkowo stwierdzil, ze „oni przyszli bic Niemców". Przede wszystkim jednak „chcieliby wejsc do miasta". Przedstawiciele polscy odpowiedzieli, ze nie maja pelnomocnictw, by na ten tamat rozmawiac. Na tym zakonczono pierwsze spotkanie,

Niemcy, którzy bardzo chcieli zdobyc miasto, jeszcze 18 IX zrzucili ulotki wzywajace do poddania i wystosowali ultimatum. Nastepnego dnia przypuscili generalny szturm, który zostal odparty. Wówczas na rogatce Gródeckiej dwukrotnie zglaszal sie oficer—parlamentariusz z propozycja spotkania z przedstawicielem dowództwa polskiego, ale zostal odprawiony. Wedlug relacji ówczesnego parlamentariusza polskiego, por. rez. Witolda Lisa-Olszewskiego, przedstawiciele niemieccy powiedzieli, ze jesli Lwów podda sie Niemcom, to zostanie w Europie, a jezeli bolszewikom — to przejdzie do Azji. Widocznie lokalne dowództwo niemieckie nie orientowalo sie, jak ma przebiegac linia podzialu Polski miedzy dwoma grabiezcami. Po odmowie, Niemcy zapowiedzieli bezwzgledny atak na 21 IX o godz. 10.

Od 20 IX do Sztabu Obrony Lwowa zaczly naplywac meldunki, ze oddzialy niemieckie stopniowo wycofuja sie z poludniowych i pólnocnych skrajów miasta, a ich miejsce zajmuje Armia Czerwona. Poniewaz oddzialy sowieckie zblizaly sie do barykad broniacych Lwowa, gen. dyw. Marian Januszajtis w imieniu Dowództwa OK VI wydal 21 IX gen. Sikorskiemu polecenie, by w razie zblizania sie zolnierzy sowieckich na odleglosc 300 mozna uzyc broni po trzykrotnym ostrzezeniu. Po poludniu tego dnia pplk Bienkowski w rozkazie do dowódców odcinków nakazal jak najwieksza czujnosc i gotowosc bojowa na noc z 21 na 22 IX. Polecil wzmocnic warty przy dowództwach, patrolowac linie telefoniczne, odwody przygotowac do szybkiego uzycia, a na przedpolu prowadzic czeste rozpoznanie bojowe. Ale w dwie godziny pózniej, na polecenie dowódcy armii, zakazal patrolowania, rozpoznawania i strzelania na tych odcinkach, gdzie stwierdzono obecnosc wojsk sowieckich. Zaznaczyl, ze taki sam rozkaz otrzymala Armia Czerwona (14).

21 IX wieczorem na odprawie dowódców gen. Langner przedstawil sytuacje, w jakiej znalazlo sie miasto i oswiadczyl„nie chcac narazac w dalszym ciagu mieszkanców Lwowa na smierc a miasto na zniszczenie, postanowilem pertraktowac z bolszewikami nad warunkami kapitulacji". Tylko plk Szafran wyrazil sprzeciw (15).

22 IX w Winnikach przedstwiciele Armii Czerwonej przyjeli bez dyskusji warunki wysuniete przez gen. Langnera. Przyjeto protokóo o przekazaniu miasta Lwowa Armii Czerwonej, w którym m. in. stwierdzono, ze Wojsko Polskie opusci poszczególne sektory. O dalszych losach wojska byla mowa w pkt. 6 i 8, które glosily: „6. Jency szeregowi i mlodsi oficerowie kolumnami pieszymi, starsi oficerowie autami opuszcza miasto wzduz szosy Lwów—Kurowice [...] 8. Oficerom Wojsk Polskich gwarantuje sie osobista swobode i nietykalnosc; ich osobistej wlasnosci. Przy przejazdach do Panstw Obcych rozstrzyga Wladza Miejska wraz z przedstawicielami wladz dyplomatycznych danego Panstwa".

Protokól ten podpisali przedstawiciele Armii Czerwonej: kombryg Kuroczkin, kombryg Jakowlew, plk Diedow, plk Fotczenkow i komisarz pulkowy Makarow; ze strony Wojska Polskiego gen. Langner i plk dypl. Rakowski.

Stronie sowieckiej bardzo zalezalo na szybkim zajeciu Lwowa. Wszak w oddzialach, które znalazly sie pod Lwowem byli jeszcze dowódcy i zolnierze pamietajacy rok 1920, kiedy to l Konna Armia Budionnego nie zdolala zdobyc tego polskiego miasta. Nie przywiazywali wiec wagi do sformulowan protokolu, bo nie mieli zamiaru go realizowac. Nie bylo to zreszta pierwsze wiarolomstwo Sowietów,

22 IX po poludniu rozpoczela sie sowiecka okupacja Lwowa. Wraz z oddzialami liniowymi wkroczyly sluzby i funkcjonariusze NKWD. Ich pastwa pierwsi padli oficerowie, którzy mieli opuscic miasto — starsi na samochodach, a mlodsi w kolumnach. Na rogatce Lyczakowskiej otoczono ich kordonem i pieszo pognano do Tarnopola. Stamtad zas, po zaladowaniu do wagonów bydlecych, wywieziono do Rosji, glównie do Starobielska. Dzis, po latach, wiemy, ze zostali zamordowani przez NKWD w Charkowie wiosna 1940 r. i pogrzebani w pobliskim lesie.

Zolnierze polscy — obroncy Lwowa we wrzesniu 1939 r. przez 10 dni walczyli z przewazajacymi silami wojsk niemieckich, a nastepnie równiez sowieckich. Walka ta, jak tez; udzial ludnosci cywilnej Lwowa — tu zupelnie pominiety — zasluguje na szczególowe opracowanie

[Gebirgsjaeger]

Hi Musashi,

I will ask my wife to translate what you posted, thanx for it.

Concerning my grand-unlce: I won´t be able to ask him anything, he died on the Russian Front in 1941.

[Der Untermensch]

The issue is crystal clear, regardless of what the Jaegers say and write.



a very, very detailed account. There is no doubt whatsoever to whom the Poles have surrendered. A huge number of the officers who did so in Lemberg were later found in Katyn.

[Gebirgsjaeger]

Musashi and Untermensch (subhuman - what a strange name....),

I am sorry! I just found evidence that what you say is (partly) true.

On the evening of September 19th, 1939 the garrision of Lemberg was virtually defeated, remants of the garrision where still offering resistance to the German forces at the western outskirts of the city particulary along Janowska and Grodecka streets and of course at the citadel.

The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht this evening announced that Lemberg had been taken by units from the 1. Gebirgsdivision - which it wasn´t.

A few hours later orders from "highest" command circles (Hitler?) ordered the German forces - mainly from 1. Gebirgsdivision - to pull back to the demarcation line because Russian forces were nearing Lemberg and it was of no sense to lose any more German lives in order to take the city for the Soviets.

On September 21st, 1939 the executive officer of the 1. Gebirgsdivision met the commander of Soviet forces at Lyczakow, a suburb of Lemberg.

Sorry for my mistake. There are many sources in my archive that - erronously - say that the Germans actually took Lemberg.

[Musashi]

No, you are wrong. The defence of Lwów was NOT virtually defeated until September 22nd, 1939. The Polish troops even held many hills surrounding Lwów. The city could have defend many days more, but the Polish command wanted to save the civilians. You should know Lwów is not an usual city. It was designed to lose one's way in it
From my prevoius post:

Niemcy, którzy bardzo chcieli zdobyc miasto, jeszcze 18 IX zrzucili ulotki wzywajace do poddania i wystosowali ultimatum. Nastepnego dnia przypuscili generalny szturm, który zostal odparty. Wówczas na rogatce Gródeckiej dwukrotnie zglaszal sie oficer—parlamentariusz z propozycja spotkania z przedstawicielem dowództwa polskiego, ale zostal odprawiony. Wedlug relacji ówczesnego parlamentariusza polskiego, por. rez. Witolda Lisa-Olszewskiego, przedstawiciele niemieccy powiedzieli, ze jesli Lwów podda sie Niemcom, to zostanie w Europie, a jezeli bolszewikom — to przejdzie do Azji. Widocznie lokalne dowództwo niemieckie nie orientowalo sie, jak ma przebiegac linia podzialu Polski miedzy dwoma grabiezcami. Po odmowie, Niemcy zapowiedzieli bezwzgledny atak na 21 IX o godz. 10.

Od 20 IX do Sztabu Obrony Lwowa zaczly naplywac meldunki, ze oddzialy niemieckie stopniowo wycofuja sie z poludniowych i pólnocnych skrajów miasta, a ich miejsce zajmuje Armia Czerwona.

Germans, who wanted to seize this city dropped leaflets calling the city to surrender on September 18th and addressed an ultimatum. They mounted general assault on the next day, but it was repulsed. Then an German envoy appeared twice on the outskirts of the city with a proposition of meeting with a Polish commander of the defence, but he was turned away. According to relations one of Polish envoys the Germans said "if Lwów surrends to Germans it will belong to Europe, but if it surrends to the Soviets it will belong to Asia". After rejecting that proposition Germans announced absolute all-out assault on September 21st at 10:00 AM.
From September 20th the Polish Staff oof the defence of Lwów received reports Germans withdrew from the southern and northern outskirts of the city and the Soviets took their positions.

[Gebirgsjaeger]

Musashi,

we can argue on and on but we won´t find out who is totally right. The litarature you own might be a little too much in favour of the Polish side and mine might be a little too much on the German side. I wasn´t there at the time.

I know that it´s hard for the self esteem of the Polish people to admit that evil Germany virtually destroyed the Polish army in less than 4 weeks. And it might help Polish self esteem to have at least a couple of signs that say that they were brave - which they were!!!

So no matter how long we discuss it - we´ll never find out for sure. The Germans could have and would have taken Lemberg. The number of casualties would probably have been very high - specualtion....

So, this is the last thing I will be writing on this thread: I have deep respect for all soldiers of the Polish army who fought in 1939 and virtually all of my sources confirm that they were very brave soldiers.

Greetings from Germany
Gebirgsjaeger