Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

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Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by John W. Howard » Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:28 am

Hello:
I have information that, at the start of the Nordwind offensive, the 21PzD had at least 2000 panzergrenadiers in its 125th and 192nd PzGr regiments, and that the 25PzGrD had about 2500 panzergrenadiers total. What I do not know from this source is the strength and types of armor both divisions had at the start of the Nordwind offensive, January 1, 1945. Is anyone able to help? Thank you.
John W. Howard

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Post by Ron Klages » Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:15 am

John,

Here are figures for the 21. Panzer-Division on 30 December 1944

Combat rediness was 2-conditionally suited for offensive operations

Officers=253 vs 317 authorized
Officials=96 vs 113 authorized
NCOs=2251 vs 3131 authorized
Enlisted men=9531 vs 11046 authorized
Total=12131 vs 14607 authorized

Panzer Regiment 22
manpower at 100%
Panthers=38 with 2 Rgt. Stab Kompanie, 2 in the I. Btl. Stab and 17 in 1. Kompanie and 17. in 2. Kompanie
Panzer IVs=34 with 17 in the 3.Kompanie and 17 in the 4. Kompanie
Möbelwagens=3 in Regt. Stab Company
Wirbelwinds=7 in Regt. Stab Company
Bergepanthers=2 in maintenance company
Bergepanzer III=1 in maintenance company

Panzergrenadier-Regiment 125
manpower at 70%
French P107s=15
15cm auf Lorraine Chassis=1
since this was suppose to be equipped witn SdKfz 251s and they had none they used civilian type medium and heavy cars for transport. They also lacked an Infantrygun Company and an Engineer Company.

Panzergrenadier-Regiment 192
manpower at 56%
SdKfz 251s=3
French P107=1
French Somua chassis with 7.5Pak=1
Marder II=1
Towed 15cm Infanntry guns=6

Panzer-Aüfklärungs-Abteilung 21
manpower at 75%
SdKfz 231=3
SdKfz 232=3
SdKfz 233=3
SdKfz 222=2
SdKfz 223=5
Towed 7.5cm Paks=2
Towed 7.5cm Infantryguns=2
SdKfz 250s=63
SdKfz 251s=20

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200
Jagdpanzer IV(L48)=4
Towed 7.5cm Pak 40s=9
Towed 8.8cm russian guns=6

in transit on 30 December were 17 Panzer IV/70(V)s

Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 155
SdKfz 251s=3
2cm Flak towed=8
10.5cm Howitzers towed=12
15cm Howitzers towed=12
10cm Cannon towed=5

Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 200
SdKfz 251s=2
French P107s=3

Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 220
SdKfz 251s=2

Heeres Flak-Artillerie-Abteilung 305
8.8cm Flak towed=3
2cm Flak towed=4
2cm Quad Flak towed=4
3.7cm Flak towed=3
3.7cm Twin Flak towed=3

In addition to the above SdKfz 251s there were the following in transit to the division on 30 December 1944:
SdKfz 251/2=9
SdKfz 251/3=5
SdKfz 251/7=4
SdKfz 251/3=3
SdKfz 251/11=1
SdKfz 251/17=1
SdKfz 251 type unknown=6

Other vehicles in transit on 30 December 1944 were:
2 Wirbelwinds for Panzergrenadier-Regiment 125
1 Wirbelwind for Panzergrenadier-Regiment 192
7 heavy armored cars(SdKFz 234s???)

Other vehicles with the division on 30 December 1944 were:
1 Kettenkrad
65 motorcycles with sidecar
202 motorcycles
941 civilian type cars
89 cross country type cars
870 civilian type trucks
108 cross country type trucks
18 Maultiers
36 1 to 5 ton prime movers
22 8 to 18 ton Prime movers
6 RSOs

Here are figures for the 25. Panzergrenadier-Division on 30 December 1944

Panzer-Abteilung 5
Panthers=6
Jagdpanzer IVs=5
Möbelwagens=3
Bergepanthers=2
SdKfz 251=1

In transit were 30 Panthers, 5 Jagdpanzer IVs (Panzer IV/70(V) and 1 SdKfz 251

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 25
14 StuG IIIs
2 Bergepanzer IIIs
3 7.5cm Pak 40s towed

In transit were 17 StuG IIIs, 12 Jagdpanzer IVs (Panzer IV/70(V), 1 SdKfz 251 and 9 7.5cm Pak 40s towed


Other vehicles were:
149 SdKfz 251s see below *
2 SdkFz 222
1 SdKfz 223

In transit were 11 SdkFz 251s

* breakdown

Panzergrenadier-Regiment 119
SdKfz 251/1=35
SdKfz 251/3=18
SdKfz 251/5=2
SdKfz 251/11=6
SdKfz 251/8=2
SdKfz 251/2=4
SdKfz 251/9=8
SdKfz 251/21=36
SdKfz 251/?=38

Other items are:
Panzergrenadier-Regiment 119 had the following manpower on 8 December 1944:
31 officers
2 officials
175 NCOs
766 enlisted men

Panzergrenadier-Regiment 35 had the following manpower on 8 December 1944:
46 officers
3 officials
285 NCOs
1235 enlisted men

Panzer-Abteilung 5 had the following manpower on 8 December 1944:
19 officers
4 officials
157 NCOs
464 enlisted men

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 25 had the following manpower on 8 December 1944:
11 officers
2 officials
120 NCOs
312 enlisted men
1 Hiwi

This should give you a feel for these two units at the end of 1944.

The data source is Dugdales books on armor unit strengths in the west from Sept44 to feb 45.

Best regards,

Ron Klages
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Post by Kamen Nevenkin » Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:35 pm

There are some gaps and mistakes in the Dugdale's info quoted by Ron.
The following info is taken from various archival sources (mainly the files of GenIspPzTr):

21.PzD (stand 8.1.1945, i.e. the day when the division was thrown into the battle):

9 755 men, 30 PzIV, 1 BefPzIV, 36 PzV, 2 BefPzV, 6 JgPzIV, 10 FlakPzIV/2-cm Flak-Vierl, 3 FlakPzIV/3.7-cm Flak, 63 leSPW, 52 mSPW, 16 PzSpWg and 1 sPak (Sfl) (SdKfz 135). Furthermore, 17 PzIV/70 were in transit (shipped from HZa on 5.1.1945).

There was no such thing as "Towed 8.8cm russian gun". In fact the Abt was armed with 8.8 cm Pak 43.

25.PGD (28.12.1944): 6 PzV, 19 PzIV/70 and StuG, 3 FlakPzIV, 135 SPW, 16 PzSpWg, 2 BergPanther, 1 BergePz III. Replacements in transit: 30 PzV, 22 PzIV/70, 25 SPW. (No StuG III's were shipped to the division during that time.) It had two full strength PzGrReg's with two battalions each.

I have similar info for 17.SS and 10.SS. If you have any interest - just let me know.

Kamen

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Tank Strength

Post by John W. Howard » Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:25 pm

Ron and Kamen:
I would like to thank you both for your excellent and timely response to my post!!! I appreciate all the typing time involved and the researching.
Kamenand Ron, if it is not too much trouble, could you post the same for 17SS and 10SS? I did not think to ask until you made your kind offer!!!! Best wishes to both of you and thank you once again.
John W. Howard

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Post by Kamen Nevenkin » Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:27 pm

10.SS-PD (30.12.1944): 35 PzIV (31 operational), 1 BefPzIV, 34 PzV (30), 12 JgPzIV (9), 10 PzIV/70 (10), 8 FlakPzIV/3.7-cm (4), 1 PzBeobIII (1), 5 PzBeobIV (2), 38 leSPW, 148 mSPW, 8 PzSpWg and 2 Wespe. PzJgAbt 665, which was tactically subordinated to the division, had 31 PzIV/70 (29 operational).

Replacements shipped to the division: 25 PzV by 10 January and 8 PzIV – on 15 January.

17.SS-PGD (28.12.1944): 19 PzIV/Lg and StuG, 3 FlakPzIV, 3 SPW, 14 PzSpWg. Replacements in transit: 57 StuG (40 StuG III shipped by 4.1.45, 17 StuG IV shipped on 28.12.44), 4 SPW (shipped on 24.12.44), 3 PzSpWg (shipped on 30.12.44), 4 FlakPzIV (shipped on 29.12.44).

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17SS and 10SS Data

Post by Ron Klages » Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:58 pm

John,

Here is what Dugdale shows for these two units.

SS Panzer Abteilung 17 on 29 December 1944
45 StuGs
3 Panzer IIIs
6 Flakpanzer 38(t)
4 Wirbelwinds
1 Bergepanzer III
3 SdKfz 251s

In transit were
4 Wirbelwinds
1 Bergepanzer III

SS Panzerjäger-Abteilung 17 on 30 December 1944
31 StuGs
2 Jagdpanzer IVs (L48)
1 Marder III
8 towed 7.5cm Pak 40s

In transit were
1 Bergepanzer III
1 SdKFz 251/8
4 towed 7.5cm Pak 40s

I should note here that of the 76 StuGs 40 were StuG IIIs and 36 were StuG IVs.


Other vehicles on 30 December 1944 were
2 SdKfz 251/7s
2 SdKfz 250/5s
2 SdKfz 222s
5 SdKfz 223s
3 SdKfz 232s

In transit were
2 SdkFz 251/3s
2 SdKfz 251/8s
3 SdKfz 234/3s

Earlier data for the 17. SS Panzergrenadier-Division on 21 December were:

SS Panzergrenadier-Regiment 37
manpower at 42%
3 towed 7.5cm Pak 40s
6 15cm Infantry guns towed
12 7.5cm Infantry guns towed
12 2cm Flak towed

SS Panzergrenadier-Regiment 38
manpower at 39%
4 towed 7.5cm Pak 40s
6 15cm Infantry guns towed
12 7.5cm Infantry guns towed
12 2cm Flak towed

SS Artillerie-regiment 17
2 SdkFz 250s
12 15cm howitzers towed
36 10.5cm Howitzers towed
4 10cm Cannons towed

SS Flak-Abteilung 17
18 8.8cm Flak towed
12 3.7cm Flak towed
3 2cm Flak towed
7 SdKfz 7/1s

Also on 21 December 1944 the division had:
5 Kettenkrads
92 motorcycles with sidecar
275 motorcycles
465 civilian type cars
571 cross country type cars
931 civilian type trucks
130 cross country trucks
27 Maultiers
40 1 to 5 ton prime movers
52 8 to 18 ton prime movers
6 RSOs

Also to join the division prior to Northwind was Panzer-Flamm Kompanie 353 equipped with the Flamm Hetzers and schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 653 equipped with the Jagdtiger.

Division manpower on 21 December 1944 was:
298 officers vs 541 authorized
1131 NCOs vs 3170 authorized
8719 enlisted men vs 12179 authorized
10148 total manpower vs 15890 authorized

Combat readiness on 21 December 1944 was 4-conditionally suited for defensive operations.


*******************************

10 SS Panzer-Division

SS Panzer-Regiment 10 on 30 December 1944
34 Panthers
35 Panzer IVs
8 Möbelwagens
2 Bergepanthers
3 SdKfz 251s

In transit were
3 Panthers
8 Panzer IVs

SS Panzerjäger-Abteilung 10 on 30 december 1944
12 Jagdpanzer IVs (L48)
10 Panzer IV/70(V)s

other armored vehicles on 30 December 1944
SdKfz 250/2=2
SdKfz 250/5=3
SdKfz 250/9=6
SdKfz 250/1=20
SdKfz 250/3=4
SdKfz 250/7=4
SdKfz 251/3=15
SdKfz 251/6=1
SdKfz 251/8=2
SdKfz 251/11=5
SdKfz 251/1=50
SdKfz 251/2=8
SdKfz 251/7=5
SdKfz 251/9=3
SdKfz 251/16=4
SdKfz 251/21=5
SdKfz 251/?=50
SdKfz 231=3
SdKfz 222=5

In transit were
3 SdKfz 251/7s

On 1 December 1944 the division had
341 officers vs authorized 593
2713 NCOs vs authorized 3888
12488 enlisted men vs authorized 12944
Total of 15542 vs authorized 17425

In December they received 3707 replacement personnel.

They had the following vehicles on 1 December 1944
8 Kettenkrads
67 motorcycles with sidecar
194 motorcycles
564 civilian type cars
287 cross country type cars
930 civilian type trucks
219 cross country trucks
65 Maultiers
30 1 to 5 ton prime movers
35 8 to 18 ton prime movers
3 RSOs
2 Wespes

In December they received

22 Panthers
33 Panzert IVs
6 motorcycles with sidecar
49 motorcycles
46 civilian type cars
83 cross country type cars
217 civilian type trucks
49 cross country trucks
1 Maultiers
21 Ambulances
4 command buses
18 trailera
60 1 to 18 ton prime movers

SS Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 10 on 1 December 1944 had
40 towed 10.5cm howitzers
24 towed 15cm howitzers
8 10cm Cannons towed
2 Wespes
1 Artillery Panzer IV

SS Flak Abteilung 10 on 1 December 1944 had
2 8.8cm Flak towed
21 2cm Flak towed
4 3.7cm Flak towed
2 SdKfz 7/1s


schwere Panzerjägr-Abteilung 655 was attached to SS Panzer-Regiment 10 as it's II. Battalion and on 30 December 1944 it had
31 Panzer IV/70(V)
2 Bergepanthers
5 SdKfz 251s

In transit but did not arrive until late January 1945 was the 2. Kompanie that was on detached service with
14 Jagdpanthers
4 Ostwinds
4 Wirbelwinds

Combat readiness on 1 December 1944 was 4-conditionally suited for defensive operations.

*****************************************

That about covers the data from Dugdale. Kamen will probably add his information for a date in January 1945.

best regards,

Ron Klages
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Panzers

Post by John W. Howard » Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:29 pm

Thank you once again Kamen and Ron; I appreciate your help very much. Best wishes.
John W. Howard

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Post by BobM » Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:14 am

Kamen Nevenkin wrote: There was no such thing as "Towed 8.8cm russian gun".
Kamen

Dear Karmen

I beg to differ on this. The Germans re-bored captured Russian 76mm FlaK to 8.8cm, so there is a such a thing as a 8.8cm Russian gun.

I'm not saying 21st Pz had any though. :-)

Cheers

Bob

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Post by Paul_9686 » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:24 pm

Bob, I always understood that the Russian 76.2mm gun, when converted for German use, was rechambered to take the 75mm Pak 40 round or a similar 75mm round, not rebored to take the 88mm round.

Perhaps someone else can either back me up or prove me wrong, but I'm real sure the captured 76mm guns were not rebored to 88mm.

Yours,
Paul

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Post by Jason Long » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:55 am

Russian _85mm_ AA guns were bored out to take German 88mm ammo. Paul is correct regarding the 76.2mm guns in German service.

Jason

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Post by Paul_9686 » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:40 pm

Thank'ee kindly for the back-up, Jason.

Yours,
Paul

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Post by lebedo » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:19 am

:D Hi!Does anybody know which part of these divisions took part in the battle of Hatten-Rittershoffen?Thanks

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Hatten Rittershoffen

Post by John W. Howard » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:29 pm

Hello Lebedo:
Here is what I have:

8 January: Around Oberroedern elements of the 192 PGR and 125 PGR are involved. (5. 6. 7./192 PGR and 220 Pz. Pionier Abt.)

9 January: I./35 PGR and II./119 PGR
KG Huss: I./119 PGR, 3./25 Pionier Bn., 25 PzJgr. Bn with tanks and Flammenwerfers.
KG Proll: 35 PGR, II./119 PGR, the rest of 25 Pionier Bn.

13 January: I./20 FJR(7FJD), 35 PGR, and KG Moltke: 110 men, 9 LMG's (formed from supply units of II./PGR 192).

15 January: Elements 21 PzD, Elements 25 PzGD, and I.and II./20 FJR

16,17,18 January: 104 VGR/47 VGD

17 January: II./20 FJR

That is about the best I can do for now Lebedo!! I hope it is some use. Best wishes.
John W. Howard

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Post by lebedo » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:00 am

:up: Thanks John.It's very kind to answer me...And yes,that helps me.

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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by lebedo » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:00 am

:D Just another question.It is generally admitted that the Frundsberg division assaulted the town of Kilstett in January 22nd-23rd.A map on op Nordwind I've just seen shows this division not in front of Kilstett.Is it possible that it was in fact the 21st Panzerdiv who launched this attack? :[]

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