"Let me entertain you....."

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krichter33
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by krichter33 »

If people want to purchase Streicher's works, then they should be allowed to. I know in Germany, for example, Mein Kampf is banned. However, I don't believe any book should be banned no matter how vile the subject matter is. Salmon Rushdie wrote his famous work a while back called The Satanic Verses, in which it mocked some aspects of Islamic belief. Of course we know the results. We also have those cartoons from Denmark. These definitely "incited racial violence," as we may know, yet they weren't banned at all. Talk about hypocrisy. I don't think any of these works should be banned or suppressed, which, of course, they weren't, despite the consequences of publishing them. Ignorant people are going to believe what they want to, whether they are influenced by religion, or society, or their upbringing, or all of them. I think it's dangerous to let the government decide what is objectionable and what isn't. We obviously disagree on this, which I think is completely fine. I have a lot of respect for a lot of your posts on the forum. But, I think I have said all I can really say about this topic. Anyways I have to go to work. :( I'll just post this link to this Guardian article that I found interesting: :beer:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... umanrights
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by phylo_roadking »

LOl the Satanic Verses and the Danish cartoon are possibly the best precedents for some form of monitoring I can think of. Frankly, I used to believe that TOTAL freedom of speech on anything was a meritorious ideal, and anyone should indeed be able to buy, read, view anything they want - coming from a small corner of the UK that has a land border with a nation that used to have a particularly strict view on the publishing of objectionable material of all kinds...

The only problem is - what's the difference between allowing people to purchase and/or read anything...and letting them view anything they want? We all KNOW there are lines that have to be drawn - or else various kinds of pronography would still be out there and freely disseminated, the original unexpurgated Anarchist's Cookbook would be available to any prospective murderous US high school student, snuff movies and x-rated violence on DVDs would be available to children, and the role of these in childrens' development has appeared in several murder cases in the UK starting with the James Bulger murder in 1993...

Likewise - at the OTHER end of the spectrum - we can all imagine that once again we would tolerate censorship of the media in time of war, as happened in WWI and WWII, and still of course happens to a degree today during times of conflict, as being necessary to prevent the dissemination of information that might be of use to an enemy...

So where do we draw that fine line?

As I said above - I see no reason why something like Streicher's material should be SOLD for personal profit. I however DO think it should be available for study by those with an interest in the period and the circumstances of Streicher's beliefs and crimes, and the historical environment they occured in and helped in their own way to shape. But not for profit. There's no reason at all they can't be reproduced on a repository requiring a free but registered sign-in....like all those nice articles up on JSTOR on topics I REALLY want to read but can't LOL This technology DOES give us all a way to both have our cake AND to eat it :wink: And as I said I have no problem at all with the congenital idiot who's selling them to post a picture of himself dressed as Adolf Hitler - if HE wants to commit the ultimate Darwinist self-immolation he's free to LMAO And I have no problem with someone like Paul Harker quoting the said site - for all that does is help destroy his OWN reputation even more...

But for every Harker there needs to be someone, or lots of someones like the membership of this site and the readership of this thread, that stands up and shines a light on what this material actually IS and WAS and what is was used for. Left for a Harker to quote out of historical context and unchallenged...is to leave the material unchallenged :shock: Someone else has to provide the historical caveat that the Harkers of this world choose not to.

If we can't or shouldn't censor Streicher's drivel - then we all have to be prepared to USE that precious freedom of speech we ALL then have to help shine that spotlight on people like Paul Harker. And at least have some idea of who's looking at it. In the words of Edmund Burke, after all...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

By even just reading this thread, you're all doing something - you're informing yourselves :wink:
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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krichter33
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by krichter33 »

Harker is a fraud and a disgusting person, and you're absolutely right, he should be exposed. I remember a while back some American author named James Fry, I believe, published a supposed autobiography that received a lot of praise. After some journalists investigating it, they discovered it was mostly fiction. Well, Mr. Fry was basically crucified, and rightly so, and is now a pariah. Of course there is no mainstream journalists on our side in exposing Harker, but he should be exposed either way. Going to Helion and posting the reviews on Amazon are a great way to do it. Unfortunately, there are people who are still going to buy his books, but at least he has been exposed on a major site like Amazon. Banning speech and press, however, is going too far. Yes, the Satanic Verses was offensive to a lot of people, and Rushdie had to face the consequences of that by hiding in exile for over a decade, because of that insane fatwah against him. And we both know what happened to Theo van Gogh, who had his throat slit for producing a film criticizing fundamentalist Islam's treatment of women. However, should those works be banned? Of course not! Yes there is a risk that some crazies would resort to those violent actions, but that is not the fault of the author. Rather, it is the fault of those fundamentalists who are so brainwashed that they feel they have to react that way. As far as material that is not appropriate for children, the governments have already established rating systems, which is fine. If a child still obtains such material it's more of the fault of the parent or a lax store policy. Otherwise should we ban all violent or sexually explicit films, because some kid might sneak into a theater, of course not. Here in the United States, we have some religious nut cases who want to ban Harry Potter books because they supposedly promote witchcraft! Where do you draw the line? Who's to say what the government is going to deem "offensive," in the future? These laws that exist in continental Europe set a very dangerous precedent. I find it ironic that Germany, and Austria, use such draconian laws. These are the same type of laws that the Nazis and the Communists had. So are we now becoming fascist to fight fascism? Freedom of speech and press should be something sacred in a real Democracy, not something that can be manipulated, because some people are offended. Arrest the criminals who actually commit real, tangible crimes, not someone because of what they think, say, or write. This is as close to "thought crime" as we can get. Of course it's maybe cliche to bring it up, but it is frankly quite Orwellian. The last thing real Democracies need is persecuting people for thought crimes. Like I said before, Harker is a fraud and should be exposed. As a fan of German memoirs, it really disgusts me that someone would do what he did. Now if he passed them off as fiction from the beginning then I could care less what he writes, but it's his deceitfulness that I find unforgivable. Does this mean we should throw his books in some symbolic bonfire? No, just don't buy his works, and continue in trying to expose him to more people. I believe you can still buy James Fry's book at your local bookstore, despite the fact that he was proven to be a fraud. Lastly I will leave with that famous quote, usually attributed to Voltaire, though it was actually written by Evelyn Hall, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” :beer:
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by phylo_roadking »

I've always agreed with Voltaire's statement myself; but on some of the other points there you have to look more closely at the chicken-and-egg scenario...the main issue over The Satanic Verses isn't that it was a thought crime - which it wasn't, it's one man's opinions enshrined as clearly-marked fiction - and that last caveat is the really important thing for the debate on Harker :wink: - the real issue over Rushdie's work is that it prompted a reaction that some sections of the population saw as justified on religious crimes - but preaching a fatwah against one individual is STILL under UK law a threat to murder. You're quite right that the problem is fundamentalism of ANY sort...but the problem actually turns round on itself, for when it comes to something like the fatwah aginst Rushdie, the fundamentalists see themselves as being in the right by what THEY see as laws greater than national laws... :wink: If course the books shouldn't be banned, but the was mainstream publishing; one has to wonder where the hell the publisher's heads were at to believe that something like The Satanic Verses could hit the shelves WITHOUT creating the furore it did! :D

But here's where the chicken-and-egg problem cuts in hard...
As far as material that is not appropriate for children, the governments have already established rating systems, which is fine. If a child still obtains such material it's more of the fault of the parent or a lax store policy
..."it's more the fault of the parent of lax store policy"....NOW, because there are limits against the material to BE broken, either accidently or intentionally. But for true freedom of information, speech and expression, there simply wouldn't be rules there to break...?
Who's to say what the government is going to deem "offensive," in the future?
Who's to say that what was banned in the past was correct either??? :wink: Take a look at the history of the banned publications list in the Republic of Ireland, for example, and what is off the list NOW but you could have been jailed for publishing and selling in ireland in the past. Or the Lady Chatterly's Lover obscenity trial here in the UK. Standards and times change back and forth - BUT, each time a major issue occurs, it's on the back of current standards as a baseline for that exact moment in time only. The DH Lawrence trial wouldn't happen now. In fact, he wouldn't even get published now, Jackie Collins sells better and is more graphic LMAO

I certainly don't agree with becoming fascist to fight fascism. But I do believe that there needs to be a better mechanism in place to monitor certain anti-social activities, for want of a better word. If I was to start searching here in the UK or in the US for the real Anarchist's Cookbook...or walk into a public library and ask for printed material on IEDs :evil: ....very soon I'd be getting that knock on the door and be asked to explain WHY I'm searching for material on bombmaking etc. And the same for certain particular areas of religious fundamentalism or political extremism. Why should anyone who wants to be able to lift their credit card and buy i.e. put money in someone else's pocket, for some of the worst kind of religious/social/political funamentalism and hate crime material ever published, without it being monitored? I don't say banned - monitored. What for example would you say if it had turned out to be your next door neighbour who you saw dressed up as Hitler and selling Streicher's books? :D The Streicher material is a different issue entirely from the normal issue of freedom of speech and of the press, for the actual material itself has been linked directly to a crime against humanity. These books were Streicher's weapons. Should a murder who shoots someone, does his time, is released under parole...be allowed to walk back into his local police station and demand his gun back? :shock:

To return to the issue in hand, I certainly don't want Harker's books "banned". I wouldn't give the nasty little denier that platform or ego boost. Anyone who really WANTS to read the drivel can do so; even the most cursory of internet search will now show them they've wasted a good $25 out of this week's groceries to do so :evil: Harker can keep on publishing all he wants - and making his couple of dollars a book by the time Outskirts and Amazon etc take their cut. Having read Sampson's blog, if Harker is making more than $5 a book I'd be very suprised LMAO He deserves to live in dire financial straits and in hock to credit card companies as a payback for how he tried to make money :D

What I DO want to see however is the books reclassified as the fiction the are; my position is the same as yours, it's the deceit and fraud here that's unpardonable. The position in the UK is very different than the US, we have a raft of consumer protection laws preventing the sale of fraudulent material. Therefore I can only applaud Helion's decision - and I've noticed two other much smaller outlets have followed suit, they still list the books but they're marked unavailable for the foreseeable future :wink: Harker can write what he likes; he can even pay to publish what he likes...but the moment it passes beyond his front door FOR SALE it needs to be labelled appropriately OR stand up to critical examination - and Directive 19 and Honor Denied do neither LOL
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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krichter33
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

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I agree with you that there have been many indecency cases brought against books in the past. Many of them have been banned because of this, quite a few in the U.S. But this doesn't make those trials or decisions right, and shouldn't be held as some sort of precedent for modern speech and press. The great thing about a democracy, I always felt, was the freedom of ideas. We have the choice to buy or accept speech and press. If some book is offensive and changes the historiography of some past event, then it needs to be challenged and exposed. Banning the book and imprisoning its authors is not the most progressive or intelligent way in solving such issues. Open debate, and exposing the frauds is much more effective. Otherwise those authors will claim martyrdom and "political prisoner" status. Over the past decade or so, Holocaust Denial has risen and become more popular. I believe one of the main reasons for this is the unwarranted publicity that these trials have received. Like I said before, the last thing a democracy should do is imprison people for speech, no matter how repugnant it is. As far as the bulk of your post, I guess we do have more agreements than disagreements, so I'll leave it at that. As far as Harker, I agree with you one hundred percent, that his books should be condemned and exposed. I applaud those on this board who have done so. I just hope he doesn't decide to write another so-called "memoir," in the future. If he does, we have to continue after him, no matter how long it takes. :beer:
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by phylo_roadking »

I just hope he doesn't decide to write another so-called "memoir," in the future. If he does, we have to continue after him, no matter how long it takes.
Spot the date...
Re: German WW II veterans
Feb 21, 2008 3:57 AM Reply Report Abuse
Mr Schiller told my husband that he wanted to write his memoirs for many reasons, but mostly to provide a warning about how such genocidal madness could start as an idea and become a reality and how we are all genetically encoded to kill.

My husband chose to bring this man's memoirs to the public in order to combat revisionism and provide truth in history by seeing through the eyes of not the victor, but the enemy. We personally believe that to be committed to not repeating the past, we need to truly understand it from all sides.

We've had so many incredible reviews of Directive 19, by historians, veterans, military enthusiasts and academia. We have had Axis veterans contact us after reading the book because they feel like they finally have a forum to speak their truth after 60 some years. We currently have 3 books in process.

Research into Directive 19 led to meeting Karl Metzger, a 2nd SS Radio Operator, who recorded his memoirs in Honor Denied. Mr Metger entered the war at age 17 embracing the tenets of National Socialism but abandoned all faith in the Third Reich while on the Eastern front with a resolve to simply survive.

Can anyone give us their impression of that work?

Thank you so much for your input
...JUST before all this kicked off. We already know about Deiter Hoffman, and Wilhelm Groener....
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krichter33
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

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Hopefully Harker doesn't publish them, otherwise we have to expose them as well.
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by phylo_roadking »

He's managed to do close down at least one of those options pretty damn' well himself with the oh-so-badly faked Hoffmann documents :D :D :D
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by Volgadon »

Yes, the Satanic Verses was offensive to a lot of people, and Rushdie had to face the consequences of that by hiding in exile for over a decade, because of that insane fatwah against him. And we both know what happened to Theo van Gogh, who had his throat slit for producing a film criticizing fundamentalist Islam's treatment of women.
There is a small, but important difference between the two. Rushdie's book, like the Danish cartoon, was written to offend, whilst the film was made to expose a problem. Before anyone jumps to that conclusion, I am not saying that Rushdie deserved the fatwah.
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by phylo_roadking »

Thankfully, the one thing we DO know is that Harker doesn't and hasn't made much money from the books. If he had, then I wouldn't have found the credit card legal judgements, he wouldn't be squatting in his parent's old summer house, and he wouldn't still be driving around in the same tired old car for the last five years. Nor had to close MadDogMemoirs for want of money last year.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by lwd »

Volgadon wrote: ...Rushdie's book, like the Danish cartoon, was written to offend, whilst the film was made to expose a problem. ...
Is it really that clear? ON either side?
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by krichter33 »

Oh great...Have you checked out Harker's blog. I guess he's at it again...

http://dir19.blogspot.com/2008/09/foami ... ghter.html

%E
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by Michael Miller / ABR »

Didn't think he could nauseate me more, but there it is.

Mr. Harker: Don't forget "Axis Biographical Research". Due to the mere fact that it is a carefully researched, entirely fact-based enterprise, you should view it as another of your many enemies; so please, tell your "buddies" in the FBI to add ABR (at http://www.geocities.com/~orion47) to their list of targeted websites.

I have never in my life been less afraid of anyone than I am of you. You remain what you've always been- a pretentious nonentity; your many failures should clue you in to your overall insignificance, and your vile conduct on and offline to your overall loathsomeness. But... not happening. You're probably the saddest specimen of humanity I've ever encountered.

Sincerely,
~ Michael (Miguel) D. Miller
"I am a historian before I am a Christian; my object is simply to find out how the things actually occurred."

~Leopold von Ranke, 19th Century German Historian
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by Volgadon »

Does Harkie expect us to believe his latest bare-faced lies and threats?
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Re: "Let me entertain you....."

Post by phylo_roadking »

It's a real piece of work...just like it's author.

First up -
To sidetrack further, WBOC - TV 16 out of Dover, (Fox 21 Delmarva) Delaware broadcasted a televised news interview with me, Paul K. Harker, regarding my books Directive 19 and Honor Denied. This station has the credit (posted on Wikipedia) as: "WBOC has been the dominant news station in Delmarva for as long as records have been kept."

The interviewing journalist, Jeremy Tucker, is the "Chief of the Dover Bureau" and his bio can be accessed here: http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S= ... nu222_12_3

He agreed to interview me AFTER verifying my resources, credentials and resources. His interview humbly made me a statistic in the pantheon of personalities he has professionally interviewed including John Glenn, Tom Brokaw, Bob Dole, former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, and Cherie Blair, wife of British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Feldgrau and AHF may claim I'm F.O.S. but professional journalists have validated me, my research and credentials, and have opted to make me TV news material.
Interesting, eh? Harker thanking us for making him into a minor celebrity...and if THIS guy believes him now, then we must ALL be wrong, eh?....

Minor problem...

http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?s=7617748

Take a look! What do you see???
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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