WHAT DO U THINK ABOUT STALIN AND HITLER

[Michael N. Ryan]

In many ways the Soviets were worse. They mistreated and brutalized their own people. Like all leftist groups today they worked on the premise that the masses are chattel and that power comes from the top down. The nazis at least tried to keep some public support rather than resort to terrorizing heir own people.

In Germany, there were demonstrations against some Government actions The T4 murders and there were the Rosenstrasse demonstrations against the seizure of mixed marriage Jews. Not so in the Soviet Union.

I have read Stalin's head of Secret Police, Beria, liked to grab young women for his bed, and also liked to grab teenage girls off Moscow's streets and rape them. I have yet to read of any Nazi official doing that in Germany.

What the nazis did to the Jews and the Gypsies is Obsene. At the same time, I also point out what Communists did to their own people in random acts of political terror and state sponsored coerced social enginering, (crimes Western intellectuals often try to trivialize or deny while loudly telling all of the crimes of the nazis) are just as vile though in greater volume.

[Jock]

Hi,

Nice word, Chattel...You have expanded my vocabulary today,cheers

In many ways the Soviets were worse.

Yeah, definately. Although, I would say that the communists knew the people were chattel - the Russians have had a long history of being ruled with an iron fist, and more readily accepted the subjugations of Communism more freely than a Scotsman, for example. I read once that Russia's population would have been somewhere near 300million today, if it hadn't been for the Stalinist years.

I have read things of that ilk about Beria too, he seemed like a nasty piece of work. Like you say, the Nazi's deed's were horrific, but Stalin's were ten times worse. Persecution by class, race, religion, sexual orientation, along with a society built on fear...A good Nazi didnt fear for his life. A good communist...well, he feared for his life...while he was alive.

As you also say, the Nazi's were tough on crime - would I be correct in saying Stalin abolished the death penalty for criminals, sometime in the 40's? Allowing only politicals to be executed.

Stalin and Hitler, Nazism and Communism, the one thing in common? Both hiding behind a political standpoint to further their own, twisted agenda's.

Cheers,

[Michael N. Ryan]

Actually the Death Penalty was briefly abolished for criminals during Lenin's time but common sence brought it back. They weren't completely stupid back then. 'Enemies of the Revolution' were never spared.

Much of their persecution and the famines they caused were done in an effort to 'prove' their social theories on how things should be. Unfortunately, their theories on social behavior defied human nature. The end result was carnage. The entire left is committed to theories that have long since been disproven especially in regards to human nature.

They still don't get it. Especially in regards to crime and human behavior.

The end result is western civilisation, once thriving and expanding, is now in decline. Rotting in place rather than reching for stars in the heavens above.

[Jock]

Hi Michael,

Do you know the exact years it was abolished in?

Enemy of the People - Intelectual, smart, forward thinking.

Friend of the People - Child molester, and/or rapist.

Quality.

I dont really get your last comment - why is the west on the decline?

Cheers,

PS - Isnt China about to prove that Democracy and Capitalism dont have to go hand in hand...Scary thought.

[Beppo Schmidt]

Enemy of the People - Intelectual, smart, forward thinking.

Friend of the People - Child molester, and/or rapist.

Mr. Ryan is in the habit of blaming "the left" for every man-made catastrophe in history.

[Michael N. Ryan]

A nation is in decline when it is no longer expanding either because its population is leaving the country in greater number to its birth rate or deaths are exceeding births. In addition there is the factor that a nation is considered living if it's reaching for new things.

In all three factors the western world is in decline.

Then there is the factor that Government is consuming more of the Gross national Product for its own uses (On average, in the US the average citizen is paying out Half their income in taxes) rather than re-investing it into its own economy.

During the decline of the Roman Empire the average Roman Family produced only Two Children. The Average Christian Family produced Six. The decline by lack of Soldiers to fight its wars and defend its territory and workers to work its fields was staved off by Foreign mercenaries and slaves taken from conquered lands but still in the end It went down. It took a few hundred years but in the end barbarians ate it alive.

China suffered a lingering decline over hundreds of years becasue there were just not enough barbarians to eat it, but enough to hold it as conquered territory. The Mongols then the Manchus with European Adventurers and the Japanese carving off bits.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

first of all, let me explain. I ain't no neo nazi, and this post is not meant to be political, if you see it that way. my opinion of Hitler is about the same as Guderian, as he stated from his memoirs "Panzer leader". He was a clever guy, but sometimes acted too rashly, and did unneccesary stupid things which darkened his reputation like KLs (Concentration camps), war crimes etc. (which of course I don't deny) The same somehow can be said of Stalin, but it should be noticed that Stalin killed more people, he brutalized the Russian and USSR people, he destroyed religion, culture, while Germany in WWII, although sometimes cruel, did not ban religion and destroy culture, and he had the equoivalent of KLs, the gulags, and in his Red army he was a lot less tolerant religiously and racially, etc since certain minorities of USSR in Red Army could not get high decorations even if they were brave in battle, while the same cannot be said of foreign volunteers in the Wehrmacht / Waffen SS, since Cossaks, Bosnian muslims, etc had a few Knight's Crosses. Just my 2 cents, please don't bombard me with politically correct language

[Michael N. Ryan]

The difference between Hitler and Stalin and their respective movements is that though both drew their ideologies from intellectuals, the nazis actually drew their power from the masses where communism like other leftist movements works from the top down to impose its ideology. Trotsky himself drew this conclusion.

Stalin and his enforcers randomly killed people or sent them to the gulags to terrorize the masses into a politically correct mold. With the occasional show trial to facilitate intimidation and make everyone parnoid both for their own future as well as to look over their shoulders for 'fifth columinsts' . He did this to communist party members. He did this to army officers. He did this to judges. They were terrorists.

Hitler's victims were predeterimined based on junk science. And he did his dirty work with judicial approval. His minions on at least one occasion met with the judiciary for guidelines. I would point out Hitler's Justice by Ingo Muller for anyone interested in the subject though there is hardly any material on the subject despite its need for study.

Beyond that there is No Difference between Hitler and Stalin. And they're no longer unique.

[John W. Howard]

Hello Folks:
A wise person on another site once told me, that the only reason Fascism never reached the body-count of the Communists was because it was never given the time to do so; Hitler never had the opportunity to implement his whole program of Aryan superiority and death to the untermenschen. We are fortunate he did not. Best wishes.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Hello Folks:
A wise person on another site once told me, that the only reason Fascism never reached the body-count of the Communists was because it was never given the time to do so; Hitler never had the opportunity to implement his whole program of Aryan superiority and death to the untermenschen. We are fortunate he did not. Best wishes.

Goebbels propoganda tried to depict the Germans as liberaotors in Soviet Union, etc so if Himmler or any other guy wanted to implememnt this mass murder, huge body count, there would be an uproar, especially amongst the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS, to see the people they liberated to be mistreated. This somehow cannot be said of the Soviet Union, since it was a generally well known fact that millons died at Gulags, since so many family members were missing, never to be heard of again.... meanwhile, in Germany, the family members of dead German Concentration camp prisoners were informed, and at least the dead of those did not run into Millions, like Stalin. Just my 2 cents.....

Helmut

[Michael N. Ryan]

Mussolini had plenty of time to rack up a body count in Italy, He didn't.

Of course, he didn't have Hitler's New Age agenda or 'racial' beliefs.

Still, other than the Final Solution, Hitler's crowd wasn't that harsh on political dissidents as Stalin was, at least in the begining. In one book I read about Ravensbruch a Communist woman Stailin sent to Hitler from his Gulags as a Peace gift actually compared Ravensbruch to a Health spa compared to the Gulags though she rated them equal by the end of the war.

Also, the nazis didn't randomly arrest citizens and execute them or send them to the KZs as Stalin's crowd did. The nazis only went after those they disliked.

It's a minor point but one worth brining up.

[John W. Howard]

Hello Michael:
I guess I agree with you up to a point, but given time to implement his program, and perhaps the peace with which to implement it, I believe Hitler could have been almost as bad. Equalling Stalin would have taken some doing though!! Best wishes.

[Michael N. Ryan]

Actually, Hitler has Two variables and it is hard to take how far it would have gone. 1. We don't know how far his Hit List was. Most of his targets were based on his vision of 'race' but the nazis also believed in genetics. They believed behavior was based on a person's genes. The modern day equivelent to Predestination. Large numbers of people were sterilized for mental illness and physical deformaties but also for 'Asocial' and Criminal Behavior on the grounds they would have children predetermined to be just as socially disfuntional. In T4 nazi doctors murdered many people with mental illnesses (including a few of Hitler's own distant cousins). We don't really know the scope of the list or how far they would have gone in times of peace and if the German people would tolerate it. The nazis drew their power from the masses. When Germans demonstrated against the T4 actions, they were quickly closed despite German courts approving them. When in Berlin the nazis seized Mixed marriage Jews, German spouses demonstrated despite government intimidation and allied bombing. Those Jews were quickly released. As long as Hitler had either public approval or indifference, he could act. 2. Hitler was a very sick man. His drive would only last as long as he lived. We don't know if any possible successor would have carried on.

Based on these, I would be inclined to say that I doubt the nazis would have killed as many people as the communists simply becasue they weren't planning to terrorize their own people but nothing is certain with Hitler.

[John W. Howard]

Hello Michael:
That Irish brain of yours works pretty well Michael!!!! You make some good points. Suffice it to say, I would not want to get on either groups "list". Best wishes.