Like in 1940 - 1941 with Great Britain. Sending military equipment to the U.K. helped the British defense, but it also helped the defense of America. England subdued by Germany, combined with a more probable scenario of a conquered Soviet Union, would be a very bad alternative for the United States. Actually, "England fighting alone" saga bought time for the U.S. to modernize its army. When the war emerged, in September 1939, the U.S. Army (only the land forces considered) was weaker than the Romanian Army, for example.sid guttridge wrote:..................................
It should also be remembered that the US was not primarily in Europe ouit of concern for European interests. It was primarily there for its own interests. It was better that the Cold War front line was in Central Europe than the Central Atlantic. It was also better that the world's biggest market - Western Europe - should be inside the US's sphere of influence rather than the USSR's. The American presence was undoubtedly largely benign, but it was not altruistic.
Cheers,
Sid.
I am proud to be an American II
Sid
Thats a weak argument, you seem to be in some type historical areana of convience. The Europeans pushed the jews out of Europe. America protected them and you all blame Zionist coluision in the US and Isreals right not too exist. Well if you Europeans were nicer both east and west thier would be no 9/11 would there.
Thats a weak argument, you seem to be in some type historical areana of convience. The Europeans pushed the jews out of Europe. America protected them and you all blame Zionist coluision in the US and Isreals right not too exist. Well if you Europeans were nicer both east and west thier would be no 9/11 would there.
Sid
Thats a weak argument, you seem to be in some type historical areana of convience. The Europeans pushed the jews out of Europe. America protected them and you all blame Zionist coluision in the US and Isreals right not too exist. Well if you Europeans were nice to the jews both east and west thier would be no 9/11 would there because they would have stayed were they were in Europe..
Thats a weak argument, you seem to be in some type historical areana of convience. The Europeans pushed the jews out of Europe. America protected them and you all blame Zionist coluision in the US and Isreals right not too exist. Well if you Europeans were nice to the jews both east and west thier would be no 9/11 would there because they would have stayed were they were in Europe..
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Vpatrick,
Nope. The "Europeans" didn't push the Jews out of Europe. It may have escaped your notice that most European countries were actually physically opposed to Germany for rather longer than the US and made greater sacrifices. The US only entered the war when Germany declared war on it. Protecting Europe's Jews was not a specific US war aim, any more than it was a British, French or Soviet war aim. In all cases it was a by-product of wars fought out of national self interest by states that had less of a down on their Jews than did Nazi Germany.
Israel has established a right to exist in international law. That is not at dispute by any European countries. What is at issue is continued injustice for Palestinians at the hands of an Israel given endless moral, financial amd material credit by the US.
Cheers,
Sid.
Nope. The "Europeans" didn't push the Jews out of Europe. It may have escaped your notice that most European countries were actually physically opposed to Germany for rather longer than the US and made greater sacrifices. The US only entered the war when Germany declared war on it. Protecting Europe's Jews was not a specific US war aim, any more than it was a British, French or Soviet war aim. In all cases it was a by-product of wars fought out of national self interest by states that had less of a down on their Jews than did Nazi Germany.
Israel has established a right to exist in international law. That is not at dispute by any European countries. What is at issue is continued injustice for Palestinians at the hands of an Israel given endless moral, financial amd material credit by the US.
Cheers,
Sid.
Yes Sid the Europeans east west pushed the jews out of Europe, the Germans killed six million of them, they were hated for centuries and pogromed back to Isreal. This is because of Europe not the US, while the US must take historical blame for the displacement of the Palestinians, Europe must take historicaL blame for pushing them out of Europe. Like I said everything was taken, they only had thier Ancestral homeland to go back too. If i was jew I probably would have done the same thing.
vpatrick
vpatrick
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Vpatrick,
You are still making no effort to differentiate amongst Europeans. Until you can do so, your generalisations have little value. Europe is not the equivalent of the US. There has never been a central European government with a single policy. The experience of each European country was different.
If the US was such a welcoming place, why, I wonder, didn't Europe's surviving Jews emigrate en masse to America after WWII? This would have displaced no Palestinians. Jews had difficulty getting into the US before the war and had no open access after the war. Why?
The creation of Israel was not just a rejection of Europe. It was a rejection of the US and its "European" values as well. You cannot migrate to Israel without being Jewish or converting to Judaism, but any Israeli can theoretically migrate to the US. Why do you think that is?
Cheers,
Sid.
You are still making no effort to differentiate amongst Europeans. Until you can do so, your generalisations have little value. Europe is not the equivalent of the US. There has never been a central European government with a single policy. The experience of each European country was different.
If the US was such a welcoming place, why, I wonder, didn't Europe's surviving Jews emigrate en masse to America after WWII? This would have displaced no Palestinians. Jews had difficulty getting into the US before the war and had no open access after the war. Why?
The creation of Israel was not just a rejection of Europe. It was a rejection of the US and its "European" values as well. You cannot migrate to Israel without being Jewish or converting to Judaism, but any Israeli can theoretically migrate to the US. Why do you think that is?
Cheers,
Sid.
-
John Kilmartin
- Contributor
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:50 pm
- Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Hi VPatrick,
Last time I checked a map Ur of the Chaldeans is in central Iraq not on the banks of the Jordan. If the Jews were to want to go back to their 'ancestral homeland' shouldn't they have emigrated to the place where Abraham was born? This is of course if you believe the Bible to be historically acurate and if one doesn't shouldn't 'our first loyalty should be to where we live' as Thomas D'Arcy McGee once said.
Last time I checked a map Ur of the Chaldeans is in central Iraq not on the banks of the Jordan. If the Jews were to want to go back to their 'ancestral homeland' shouldn't they have emigrated to the place where Abraham was born? This is of course if you believe the Bible to be historically acurate and if one doesn't shouldn't 'our first loyalty should be to where we live' as Thomas D'Arcy McGee once said.
' Strip war of the mantle of its glories and excitement, and it will disclose a gibbering ghost of pain , grief, dissappointment and despair'
Sid
Yes I generalize about Europe I am not writing a thesis i am writing a generlal reply. Germans Poles Russians generally pushed the jews out of Europe. And like anything the place of least resistance is were a people will go. For instance ex. SS went South America, there was a population of jews in Palestine pre ww2, as was in Argentina. Please dont tell me the germans did not take over south america as the Jews did in palestine thats not my point.
My point is in one of your previous posts sid you mentioned that the US can cast blame to others for its mistakes, my point is we are all in this historically together. We all point fingers at each other but every thing done in history either US or Europe has an effect, where you want too start the blame timeline is a whole new ball game.
Vpatrick
Yes I generalize about Europe I am not writing a thesis i am writing a generlal reply. Germans Poles Russians generally pushed the jews out of Europe. And like anything the place of least resistance is were a people will go. For instance ex. SS went South America, there was a population of jews in Palestine pre ww2, as was in Argentina. Please dont tell me the germans did not take over south america as the Jews did in palestine thats not my point.
My point is in one of your previous posts sid you mentioned that the US can cast blame to others for its mistakes, my point is we are all in this historically together. We all point fingers at each other but every thing done in history either US or Europe has an effect, where you want too start the blame timeline is a whole new ball game.
Vpatrick
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Vpatrick,
Funny. I thought it was my point that "we are all in this historically together" and your point was that the US was somehow divorced from European anti-Semitism.
Blame can only be accrued in one's lifetime. I don't believe in race guilt or that "the sins of the father shall be visited upon the son". Current injustice can be rectified. Historical injustice can't because both perpetrators and victims are dead. Just now it is not the Jews who are suffering most injustice, but Palestinians. However, US policy is not attuned to this fact and that is one reason why 9/11 happened where it did, when it did, to who it did.
Cheers,
Sid.
Funny. I thought it was my point that "we are all in this historically together" and your point was that the US was somehow divorced from European anti-Semitism.
Blame can only be accrued in one's lifetime. I don't believe in race guilt or that "the sins of the father shall be visited upon the son". Current injustice can be rectified. Historical injustice can't because both perpetrators and victims are dead. Just now it is not the Jews who are suffering most injustice, but Palestinians. However, US policy is not attuned to this fact and that is one reason why 9/11 happened where it did, when it did, to who it did.
Cheers,
Sid.
-
John W. Howard
- Moderator
- Posts: 2282
- Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:55 pm
Sid
Hello Sid:
I must confess, I agree with your ideas about Israel. The US has wedded itself to a policy of support for Israel which is utterly devoid of common sense. The US's unequivocal support for the state of Israel is THE leading cause of distrust towards the US by Muslims around the world. And I might add, it makes us look like hypocrites in the eyes of the rest of the world to espouse freedom and democracy for all, when we so solidly support Israel and its policies. If one thinks about it, the policy makes no sense what-so-ever given the realities of the world today. The US needs oil; who has it? Most of it is in the hands of Muslim nations, whom we alienate with our support of Israel. How many Muslims are there in the world and how many Muslim countries? Many times more than the state of Israel or the number of Jews in the world.
Some might say that Israel is a valuable ally. Really? The US is the number one target of Israeli Intelligence. Does that sound like an ally? Some say that Israel provides the US with much needed intelligence on the middle east. Really? From what I have heard, much of the intelligence the US gets from Israel is skewed to serve Israeli purposes. I would be interested to find out what role Israeli intelligence played in our invasions of Iraq. Does an ally attack the ships of its friends like the Israelis did during the 1967 war? Does an ally sell the nuclear secrets of its best friend in the world to their arch-enemy? I could go on.
At the turn of the century, the US state department was full of "Arabists", people who knew the Arab and Muslim world and advocated good relations with them. What happened in the next forty odd years, which caused us to support a very tiny minority, to the exclusion of millions of Muslims, who just happened to have most of the world's oil? It is a mystery to me and defies all logic. If anyone is able to enlighten me, I would be most appreciative.
I must confess, I agree with your ideas about Israel. The US has wedded itself to a policy of support for Israel which is utterly devoid of common sense. The US's unequivocal support for the state of Israel is THE leading cause of distrust towards the US by Muslims around the world. And I might add, it makes us look like hypocrites in the eyes of the rest of the world to espouse freedom and democracy for all, when we so solidly support Israel and its policies. If one thinks about it, the policy makes no sense what-so-ever given the realities of the world today. The US needs oil; who has it? Most of it is in the hands of Muslim nations, whom we alienate with our support of Israel. How many Muslims are there in the world and how many Muslim countries? Many times more than the state of Israel or the number of Jews in the world.
Some might say that Israel is a valuable ally. Really? The US is the number one target of Israeli Intelligence. Does that sound like an ally? Some say that Israel provides the US with much needed intelligence on the middle east. Really? From what I have heard, much of the intelligence the US gets from Israel is skewed to serve Israeli purposes. I would be interested to find out what role Israeli intelligence played in our invasions of Iraq. Does an ally attack the ships of its friends like the Israelis did during the 1967 war? Does an ally sell the nuclear secrets of its best friend in the world to their arch-enemy? I could go on.
At the turn of the century, the US state department was full of "Arabists", people who knew the Arab and Muslim world and advocated good relations with them. What happened in the next forty odd years, which caused us to support a very tiny minority, to the exclusion of millions of Muslims, who just happened to have most of the world's oil? It is a mystery to me and defies all logic. If anyone is able to enlighten me, I would be most appreciative.
John W. Howard