I am proud to be a American

[awaygood]

Being of 'Irish descent' doesn't necessarily qualify VPatrick as knowing more about the subject than I do, although that might well be the case. The fact remains that the IRA had great sympathy in the USA and, for many years, the US Government did little, overtly. to outlaw its activities in the USA. The unfortunate thing is that the USA now gives the impression that it only 'discovered' terrorism following the 11th September attacks -whereas Europe has had to put up with it for years: the IRA, the Provos, the Red Brigade, the Bader-Meinhoff, etc. So, it should stop lecturing Europe about its attitude to terrorism.
Further to my earlier point, many European and other democratic countries resent being lectured on democracy by the USA which, by no means, has a monopoly on democracy. Whether or not the USA 'means' to do so is neither here nor there, but it does come across as insinuating that the USA sets the standard for democracy -which it certainly does not!

[sid guttridge]

Hi Vpatrick,

Israel is the underdog? It is the only country oin the Middle East with nuclear weapons, it is the only country in the Middle East backed blindly by the world's only superpower and it is the only country that continues as a matter of policy to annex other peoples' land. What underdog?

Why is Israrel surrounded by millions of Arab enemies? Because it put itself in harms way by occupying other peoples' land with US support.

Why was the US the subject of 9/11? Because of its unquestioning support for Israel. Again, the US put itself in harm's way.

I have only one idea why the US would support Israel so unquestioningly and for so little obvious benefit to itself - because US democracy has been subverted by disproportionately influential pro-Israeli interest groups.

Several pages ago I asked for a pragmatic explanation as to why the US supports Israel against what appears to be its own interests? Uli apart, I have yet to get an anawer. I can see why, all other things being equal, the US might incline towards Israel. What I don't understand is why it does so against what appear to be its own interests. Israel doesn't uphold US values and is unusable as a foreign policy tool. Why?

Is it really because "Chritian" middle-Americans actually believe that God promoised Jews the Holy Land? If so, do they realise that the biblical Holy Land is predominantly the West Bank? Are they therefore effectively giving Israel a free hand to expel all remaining Palestinians? If so, why should any of us be surprised at 9/11?

Are Americans aware that between 9/11 and Iraq they have laid down more lives than Israel did in any single war against the Arabs in half a century? I would suggest that nearly sixty years of tacit and acticve support for Israel are finally coming home to rost for the US. Arabs find it very difficult to separate Israel and the US in their mind's eye, and who can blame them?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Vpatrick]

I dont think the US would try to insert western style democracies in the countries you mention (Oman, etc.) like you said they basicaly behave themselves. But you have to admit countries like Syria, Iran, Iraq(prior to invasion)and even to some extent Jordan, and Eqypt are clearly belligerant to the US and dicatorship is clearly part of the problem.
But I agree we should try our best to fix Iraq and leave them all alone including Isreal. We cant do anything right in the mideast

[Vpatrick]

Sid
I was only offering an explaination of US support for Isreal I am not sure what the definitive reason is. You are right about what support for Isreal is costing us. Terrorism is relatively new to Americans and once Americans realized terrorist ambitions and potential, we went ballistic.
Mayby overboard but like any war thier will be mistakes.

I am not sure what examples you can offer where the US lectures Europe on Democracy, but America has been doing this for 200 years its nothing new. I think the world should take some time out blamming America for everything and take a look elsewhere. The recent problems with the Dutch and Islamic radicals had nothing to do with the US. They would like to kill all unbelievers, when are you Europeans going to understand this.
We will see how your opinions change when Europeans are the target of a massive attack(which I hope never happens Im not that interested in winning the argument that bad)

Americans are sick of being lectured by Europeans about how we are the root cause of everything. No one ever thanks America for all the good we have done. Like the fact that we rebuit Europe after WW2 and did not sow salt into the fields of the Vanquished. Defended Western Europe from Soviet aggression for 60 years, A catalyst for the unification of Germany, but Im sure there is some twisted reason why we did these things. Does not sound like the actions of a Evil nation. If we are a nation run by Jewish interests why did we not level Germany after ww2? America is a large complex country if anyone can trully understand its motivation let me know.

[Ernest Penfold]

If we are a nation run by Jewish interests why did we not level Germany after ww2?

Ever hear of the Morgenthau Plan? I think what prevented Germany from being turned into an agrarian society was the realization that Germany would be necessary to the West for the Cold War against the Soviets. Fortunately, we got the Marshall Plan instead.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Vpatrick,

I personally supported (and still support) the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. However, what I find difficult to bear is the widespread American belief that 9/11 happened out of the blue, had no history and that US policy was in no way contributory to it.

The justification for the war in Afghanistan is similar to that which might justify 9/11. Neither side could directly reach its foes (Islamic terrorists or Israel) so they decided to go for the states supporting their foes (Taliban Afghanistan or the US). To put it crudely, if the Taliban had it coming, so did the US.

US democracy was cutting edge 200 years ago. Today it has been surpassed in its "democracicity" by a good number of European and other nations (although not by the UK). In most European countries it is consitutionally impossible for the head of state to be elected by a minority of the popular vote, as was George Bush in 2000. I well remember during the 1980s Ronald Reagan, who got the support of barely a third of the US electorate because of low turnout, objecting to a Sandanista election victory in Nicaragua in which Daniel Ortega got some 64% of the electorate. At the same time Reagan was happily supporting Pinochet's unelected military government in Chile. That the US is a democracy is a thoroughly good thing, but it would help mightily if the US poulation was less publicly self congratulatory about the fact and if it possessd greater self awareness of the limitations of its own system, both in its theory and practice.

By and large, Europeans are mightily grateful for their liberation by the US in WWII and the Cold War. However, the US was not alone in these undertakings and others took greater risks and made much greater sacrifices.

My grandparents and parents had every reason to be thankful for US intervention in Europe, but what, exactly, do today's generation of Europeans owe to today's generation of Americans? Today's generation of Americans cannot expect to be exempt from criticism simply because their grandparents' generation did a great and wonderful thing.

I believe that, by and large, the US is a positive force in the world, and certainly better than any other alternative potential sole super-power. But it ain't perfect and Middle America, in particular, badly needs greater self awareness. Did you see that "conservative" Texas has a higher proportion of single parents, abortions and divorce than "liberal" Boston?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Vpatrick]

Sid
I wonder why the world thinks America owes Europe or anybody anything.
We are damned if we do and damned if we dont. Europeans consider Americas help post world war2 as historical, yet when they consider 60 years of mideast poicy mismangement we deserve 9/11. While our support for Isreal is well known the US policy towards the mid east can not be said to be one sided. The US and even Clinton has been trying hard to see peace. Clinton had brokered a peace deal with the Palestinians, the Palestinians chose war. Too say the US got what it deserved is not entirely fair, yes the US made mistakes all around, but an unprovoked attack killing thousands of civilians is not ever deserved, its just too easy to say.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Vpatrick,

If US policy bias in the Middle East was a purely historical phenomenon, like the liberation of Western Europe in 1944-45, you might have a point. But it is not. It is an ongoing phenomenon.

Have you looked at the details of the peace deal that Clinton brokered? What it offered the Palestinians was not the whole of Palestine, which they had overwhelmingly populated in 1919. It was not the ±60% of the territory the UN allocated to them in 1947. It was not even the internationally unrecognised de facto border before 1967. The peace treaty Clinton brokered gave them barely a quarter of Palestine's land area and specifically discounted the right of return of Palesinian refugees to their properties. Does this sound equitable? The only things that could make the Palestinians agree to this would be total military suppression and absolute despair.

Why should the Palestinians ever accept that?

The fact of the matter is that Biblical Israel is predominantly on the currently Palestinian West Bank and that a significant Israeli lobby will never offer the Palestinians an acceptable peace because it would mean having to withdraw from land they believe God gave them. A definitive peace is not in Israel's interest as long as the US provides cover for its continued expansionism. Even Sharon's "withdrawal" from Gaza is not actually a withdrawal. The Israeli Army will remain in Gaza and the settlers are to be switched to the West Bank.

9/11 did not happen in a vacuum and it can hardly be described as "unprovoked" unless one completely ignores 60 years of US foreign policy in Palestine that were profoundly and obviously provocative to Muslim sensibilities everywhere. The US simply misread the breaking point of the most radical Muslim opinion and must now live with the consequences.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Vpatrick]

SID
Point taken but your argument does not make sense, okay you are right, but in reality the Isrealis are not going to go away or disapear. The jews have had ties to that land for thousands of years too they did not just show up. The Palestinains have more inhabitants doing alot of nothing on those Lands. Isreal historicaly was a jewish state they got bounced by jewish predators now the jews are the bouncers. Sometimes history aint fair which the jews know all too well. By the way Im not jewish.

[Nibelung]

After 9/11 I knew more than ever who I was... An American. I saw the Arabs they were so happy about the attack. It angers me to see them burning American flags. However I am overjoyed to watch the cities of all people who hate America and its people be overrun by our proud and noble military.

I realized how much these countries hate America, I find it importent that I hate them as well. I am proud of everything America has done since 2001. I will stand by America wrong or right. I now think of those countries that hate America... As nothing more than my personal enemy.

Let's raise the red white and blue, burn the villages that hate us, blast those damn beduins...destroy their infrasturcture, their civilisation 4000 years older than our America!! Who dares hate us?! Who dares dance to our misery?!

...how sad that this forum is dealing with things that looked like that 60 years ago to teach people something from the past... in vain. Long live America!!

Nibelung

[sid guttridge]

Hi vPatrick,

I am not suggesting that Israel and the Israelis should disappear. I am suggesting that if they genuinely want to create conditions for peace they should stop their continuous expansion onto territories that are not recognised as theirs under international law and that the US should stop underwriting this patently illegal expansion through material and moral support.

Whether the Palestinians were making less productive use of the land than the Israelis could is irrelevant. Your neighbour can't confiscate your garage just because you have a smaller car than him that doesn't make such good use of it! That is a recipe for anarchy.

Historically, the area has only had a Jewish state for a minority of the ±5,000 years of recorded history. Even according to the Biblical version the Jews arrived in the "Promised Land" no earlier than 1400 B.C. and the Romans (not the Palestinians or other Arabs) forced them out in about 130 A.D. If one follows the archaelogical record, there are no identifiably distinctive Jewish traces before about 800 B.C. Even if the Arabs arrived after 600 AD, they have still lived in the area far longer than the Jews.

However, there is no reason to believe that Palestinians are essentially descended from post-120 AD immigrants. They are Semitic like the Jews and the peoples of the area before the arrival of the Jews. Palestinians might equally be descended from the same Biblical-era stock as the Jews.

Israel's claim on the area has no particular validity not shared equally by the Palestinians.

The real substance of Israel's claim to the area is essentially founded on contemporary brute force, not Biblical fantasy about a God-promised land, and it has been backed by the US since 1948. Force is almost always resisted by force. 9/11 was the most extreme such reactive force - so far.

Since 1973 the US has lost more fatalities due to its Israeli connection than has Israel in its own defence. Add Lebanon to 9/11 and the Iraq War and you get a figure of between 4,000 and 5,000 US dead and it is still climbing. Why?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Vpatrick]

Sid,
Clearly your command of the subject is superior to my own. My agrument appears to be superficial compared to yours. But I do know the majorty population of Isreal desires peace vs. war, while the Clinton peace proposal denied the palestitinian 60% of thier lands and the west bank would be somewhat occupied, dont you think they mistrusted the hard line terrorist elements. It was a good start to peace not the end all. Isreal has a right to defend itself and did not want rocket attack to its major metropolitan areas. It was a start. As the hard line old elements in Isreal and Palestine die we may see peace. Peace aint cheap.

I gotta say that Europeans West and East have been racist haters of Jews for centuries. If Europeans were not jealos haters and blamers and embraced the jews there would not have been Zionism. They fled to the only place they had any kind of claim, (Europeans ran em out of town, and Aruba was full) Isreal. A country that was broken up by past haters of the jews, and were dispersed all over the world. Yet Europeans blame the US for the existance and support of Isreal, and still hate Isreal. European interpretation of history is entirely subjective, 60 years ago is past, and European do nothing is present.

In America we have a conscious, we enslaved the blacks (our national disgrace) and they have more government rights than the whites because(not done perfectly) we are sorry, we try to even the playing field to the expense of the majority. All Europe can do (which is a bigger Market than the US) blame the US for supporting Isreal Europe is the continent that pushed them there. Europe is a continent of blamers you all started this, Americans are trying our best but somewhat sloppily to pick up the pieces. European sense of history is 60 years shy of responsibilty but also 300 too 1000 years too.

Im Irish catholic and the british enslaved Ireland and still have N.Ireland we went on with our lives. Even though it happened a hundreds of years ago it does not make it right. Then again raising a familiy and living life will always win over bombs if it goes on too long.

Stop blaming America by ignoring your own history, America has little history compared too Europes. blah blah
Vpatrick

[Florin]

.............I am overjoyed to watch the cities of all people who hate America and its people be overrun by our proud and noble military.

I realized how much these countries hate America, I find it importent that I hate them as well. I am proud of everything America has done since 2001. I will stand by America wrong or right. I now think of those countries that hate America... As nothing more than my personal enemy.

On 4 NBC, every day at 11:34 PM - Eastern Time, starts "The Tonight Show", with Jay Leno. It's a talk show: comics, humor, guests etc.

One joke from there, in one day:

Every year a book is published, containing all countries that hate or despise The United States. The title of the book is The Atlas of the World.

[Vpatrick]

Florin;
SS Panzer is a 14 year old boy, who does not know the world, the US is a complex country, you are simple if you dont realize this. He is a young American who hates the world because the US is a country trying sloppily to pick up the pieces of hundreds of years of European mistakes.

Europeans ask themselves, why does America support Isreal and if they did not 9/11 simply would not of happened. Well if you enlightened Europeans had the chance too tell your grandfathers not kill the jews, (Eastern and Western Eurpeans), thier would have been no Zionism.

Yet America is too blame for everything, the dutch just got attacked by the Muslamic extremists, Im sure the US is at fault. The US is a young country and if you know history, we did not start this. Europe has a short memory, and a long one when they are at fault.

[Florin]

................ They fled to the only place they had any kind of claim, (Europeans ran em out of town, and Aruba was full) Isreal. A country that was broken up by past haters of the jews, and were dispersed all over the world. ..............Vpatrick

Patrick,

Even though the American history, as learned in school, is shorter in time than the history of other nations, nothing stops you to start to learn international history, including the ancient times.

My point target your words: ...past haters of the Jews...

You refer to the Romans. To use your words, A country that was broken (i.e. Judeea) because it asked for it. This happened in the times when Hadrian was the emperor.

The biggest problem of Hadrian was a revolt of the whole Judeea. It was enough for somebody there to claim himself as Mesia, that those guys who always stuck it the fixed idea that they are "the chosen people" to start the fight.

To crush the first revolt in Judeea, in 72 AD (the trouble started at the end of Nero, and lasted to the days of Vespasian, who actually was the general sent to Judeea, then becoming emperor) the Romans could do the job with only 3 legions.

To crush the revolt sparked during Hadrian, the emperor had to bring 13 legions! The best Roman general, who was in Britania at the moment (today's Great Britain), traveled across the whole Roman empire to give to the chosen people a well-deserved lesson.

Then the emperor decided to end this trouble-making matter. Do you have any idea about what trouble created Judeea for the Roman Empire? The Romans had to withdraw from a part of Dacia - the richest province in gold ore. Worse than retreating from Dacia, the Roman Empire had to abandon Mesopotamia (today's Iraq), and the Arabic Peninsula .

Mesopotamia (today's Iraq), was the last province to be conquered, and the first to be lost, by the Roman Empire... Oooops!