Feldgrau.net

Regardless of the Kiev or Moscow decision the US/UK-CW will support the Soviets (militarily, economically and politically which has a huge effect on morale) and the US will enter the war, thus the Soviets do not surrender even if Moscow falls in 1941. If the decision is Moscow its unclear if the Ge...

From the standpoint of the 18 August Wehrmacht/OKH plan the Germans thought themselves in a good position. In both reality and hindsight that estimate and opinion were both proven absolutely incorrect. The Wehrmacht as it stood in mid-August was not capable of defeating the USSR no matter what hist...

Such superlatives are most often wrong. This one is not one of the exceptions. Whether or not Germany would gain would depend on how you define the term as well as things like exchange rations, territory held, how long "prolonged" is etc. Stating your opinions as if they are facts does no...

Had I looked up a large number of sites there might have been some validity to that suggestion but the quotes I posted were the majority of the ones that I found in a quick search.. Does not matter at all as that does not mean a thing.You posted what suited you. The data do not support what you say.

AGN and AGS were basically stopped and there was no pause planned for them, only AGC's PzGrps allowed them to make substantial progress according to the original Barbarossa plan. The planned pause was for AGC and was to happen after the majority of the Red Army was destroyed, but it never was, thus...

I didn't say "good" job did I? AGS and AGN had no planned pause, they were stopped no? My former argument is still current, that the original German Intel estimates led to an insufficient logistical support plan and that no matter what decisions you change in the OTL the Wehrmacht lacked ...

lwd wrote: Is it? I've seen some very lengthy well debated topics where even with the use of all the historical data we now have the resolution is far from clear.

Knowing what happend is always going to influence the secondguessing.

It was certainly necessary to win quick as any prolonged war could only end to the disadvantage of Germany. Was it? I've seen a number of people state this but have yet to see a convincing argument. Certainly it was desireable from the German POV to win quickly but fighting on two fronts at all was...

There were no more than the normal logistical issues caused by an advance in depth which is the picture you find in many unit histories. Possibly although you have yet to prove this and just how relevant it is to your position. Not possibly. There were the obvious issues inherent to any deep advanc...

lwd wrote:

julian wrote: A whole hodgepodge of exaggerated statements.

Indeed it points to a pretty strong consensus that there were signifcant logistics problems during Barbarossa which is counter to your positoin.

No, you just randomly put together a number of statements which suit you.

You may find it interesting to note that until the Kiev operation the Red Army had actually done it's job of stopping Barbarossa. The enemy was stopped at fortress Kiev and Leningrad, also stopped just east of Smolensk. STAVKA expected the next push would be on the Smolensk-Moscow Axis and had conc...

Interesting but of course the authors might have felt disinclined to state they had messed up might they? And other sources state just the opposite. For instance: http://www.mindef.gov.sg/safti/pointer/back/journals/1998/vol24_2/4.htm In Strategy For Defeat, William Murray states that the superfici...

As you suggested earlier, a lot of rhetoric but no facts. At what date or specific timeframe are you suggesting that the Wehrmacht/AGC was able to launch a full offensive against Moscow with a good chance of success? 15 Aug? 1 Sep? Be specific in your hypothesis so we can accurately look into troop...

It's not rocket science to realise that AGC's range of operations in Sep would not be limited by weather but by other factors (logistics comprehensively, personnel losses, etc). You keep comparing Typhoon to an early advance to Moscow as if the same exact results would happen only on an earlier sch...

No, the Pz Gruppe moved in the same time frame you are talking about and the situation in regard to logistics/maintenance is much more comparable to the operation you are suggesting than is Typhoon. In that same exact timeframe the railheads were where they would be for an early drive on Moscow, as...