Search found 143 matches

by Osterhase
Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:45 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?
Replies: 291
Views: 101027

Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Great, thanks! I'm looking forward to reading something new (to me anyway) on the topic. I have quite a few of the foreign military studies, not sure I've seen that one ever though.
by Osterhase
Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:16 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?
Replies: 291
Views: 101027

Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Thanks, it was only 24 Euro from Amazon.de (not too bad). I'm curious how this book compares to the facts/opinions expressed in: Logistik im Russlandfeldzug. Die Rolle der Eisenbahn bei Planung, Vorbereitung und Durchführung des deutschen... von Klaus A Schüler (Dezember 1987). Schüler was very clea...
by Osterhase
Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:16 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?
Replies: 291
Views: 101027

Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

At least I presented data while you simply assembled quotes which suited you. ??? So when you present it it's "data" but whe In present it it's just "quotes which suited" me? We have both presented quotes that support our position. It's pretty clear however that there are a lot ...
by Osterhase
Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:48 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?
Replies: 291
Views: 101027

Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Agreed, my point is that taking Moscow is the optimal scenario but that in practicality it wasn't the best option once the campaign started (Op Barbarossa's force structure was inadequate to complete it's objectives). It would cost the Wehrmacht too much and the Soviets weren't going to surrender an...
by Osterhase
Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:35 pm
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?
Replies: 291
Views: 101027

Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

The point was destruction of the Red Army, thus OKH pushing for Moscow as the target, no? My point is that the Kiev operation delivered up one million Red Army Soldiers to the Wehrmacht, something that an early Moscow operation isn't likely to do. Without the help from AGC to AGS there can be no enc...
by Osterhase
Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:49 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?
Replies: 291
Views: 101027

Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Not the issue. The issue is that given the intention to try to wage a decisive battle by going for the enemy capital, the ofensive towards moscow needed to start end august and this was feasible. So the the city Hitler needed to go for was Moscow. I agree in principle, however in practicality the i...
by Osterhase
Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:44 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?
Replies: 291
Views: 101027

Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

From the standpoint of the 18 August Wehrmacht/OKH plan the Germans thought themselves in a good position. In both reality and hindsight that estimate and opinion were both proven absolutely incorrect. The Wehrmacht as it stood in mid-August was not capable of defeating the USSR no matter what histo...
by Osterhase
Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:05 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Hitler's Moscow order

No , they were not stopped. A pause was inevitable. I find it laughable that you continue to come up with logistical issues that did not exist to the extent you allege and never came up in the discussuions at the time. And the issue is that there were good reasons to try to get the victory in one c...
by Osterhase
Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:39 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Hitler's Moscow order

Agreed.... Personally I believe that it was many factors working in concert and the end result was predictable failure. Generally I start with the Intel estimates, then look at the inadequate logistical and personnel replacement plans based upon them and how over space/time attrition of men and mach...
by Osterhase
Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:09 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Hitler's Moscow order

Given the beating the red army received and the amount of terrain it lost, the statement that it had done a good job in stopping Barbarossa is extremely funny. Suddenly, it is the red army that stops the german army and not the logisitcal issues which were your former argument. You ignore that some...
by Osterhase
Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:57 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Hitler's Moscow order

Historical perspective looking backward and based upon facts versus estimates based upon assumptions, not facts and looking forward: "By August 1941, the motorised supply system was exhausted. Ammunition and fuel, both of which were previously under-estimated were in limited supply. The reason ...
by Osterhase
Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:50 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Hitler's Moscow order

You know pretty well that there was a proposal by made by OKH on 18 august for the advance to Moscow . Given the reasoning of the OKH this operation was certainly not intended to start later than the beginning of september. If a clear decision had been made earlier for the focus on Moscow this oper...
by Osterhase
Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:46 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Hitler's Moscow order

It is not credible that something major happened to AGC between end august and beginning of october which took away alleged prohibitive obstacles to an advance on Moscow. They did not exist and that is why this issue never came up in the discusssions in the german high command. Attacking early was ...
by Osterhase
Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:08 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Hitler's Moscow order

No, the Pz Gruppe moved in the same time frame you are talking about and the situation in regard to logistics/maintenance is much more comparable to the operation you are suggesting than is Typhoon. In that same exact timeframe the railheads were where they would be for an early drive on Moscow, as...
by Osterhase
Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:25 am
Forum: Campaigns and Battles
Topic: Hitler's Moscow order
Replies: 175
Views: 79464

Re: Logistics

In approximately 17 days Pz Gruppe 3 was down to 1/3 of it's tanks and 50% of its motor vehicles while travelling a shorter distance than to Moscow and against much lighter resistance, but you see no issue here? How long do you feel the Moscow operation would last? That PZGR 2 got as far as it did,...