RE command pz
Was there a specific methodology for employing the command tanks?
Being unarmed obviously made them very vulnerable. I've always assumed they had an escort pltn or somesuch.
Also - I'm reading Panzer Aces which has a good bit about Dr. Bake and he often seemed to be in an armed panzer? I'm guessing that this sort of thing must have been situational rather than set in stone - yet how to command a full pz battalion without all the necessary radio gear?
thanks
reb
Kursk / Prokhorovka Questions
Moderator: sniper1shot
...A veteran from Nachrichtenabteilung LAH told me his Kompanie was outfitted with Beob.Pz. III at Kursk, instead of the more usual mittler Funk-SPW'sPanzeralex wrote:3. About Pz. III Beob.
I don't know about all Divisions, but there were 8 Pz. III Beob (which not included in my early post) in LSSAH.
BTW, as evidenced by photos taken on 12.07.1943 at Prochorowka, the divisional staff had several Pz.Kpfw. I (twin MG turret, not the Beobachter).
Just my cents,
Timo
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Panzeralex
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Re: Kursk / Prokhorovka Questions
I do not know about all Bef.Pz. employed in operation Zitadelle, but there were:Reb wrote:RE command pz
Was there a specific methodology for employing the command tanks?
Being unarmed obviously made them very vulnerable. I've always assumed they had an escort pltn or somesuch.
7 Pz.D: 7 Bef.Pz. III with 5 cm Kwk L/60
And I think, that there were most (or all) Bef.Pz. III in SS Pz.Gren.D LSSAH, DR, T and in Pz.Gren.D. Grossdeutchland were armed with 5 cm Kwk L/42 and L/60.
Best regards,
Panzeralex.
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Panzeralex
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Could somebody confirm or deny this information?Timo wrote:...A veteran from Nachrichtenabteilung LAH told me his Kompanie was outfitted with Beob.Pz. III at Kursk, instead of the more usual mittler Funk-SPW'sPanzeralex wrote:3. About Pz. III Beob.
I don't know about all Divisions, but there were 8 Pz. III Beob (which not included in my early post) in LSSAH.
Why in LSSAH were registered 9 Pz. Beob?
Best regards,
Panzeralex.
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Kamen Nevenkin
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Panzers
It was not BeobPz, but BefPz and there was nothing sensational in this fact - already in 1942 the armored radio companies (as per KStN 971 of 1.11.1941) had been authorized to have 1 BefPzIII (SdKfz 267) and 2 BefPzIII (SdKfz 268) in their 1-st platoons. BeobPz wasn't applicable for such purpose - it had very different radio set (FuG 4 + FuG 8 instead of FuG 5 + FuG 7 or FuG 5 + FuG 8 combination). Regarding the number of PzBeob mentioned by (Panzer)Alex I want to add that according to an order dated 4 July 1943 all Panzer-Artillery regiments (equipped with Panzerhaubitzen) were to be issued with 9 PzBeobIII and 4 SdKfz 250/5 -probably one tank per battery commander and one half track per forward observer (in armored batteries). With certainty a respective set of KStN exists, but (unfortunately) it still not belongs to my collection. By the beginning of Kursk offensive some of the panzer divisions committed to battle were issued with a full allotment of PzBeob (in particular 4.PzD had eight while 11.PzD - nine PzBeob). Probably LSSAH was among them.
Kamen
Kamen
Hello Panzeralex!
Thank you for the additional information! This is good! I wonder if we can compare numbers because I always like to double-check my sources and numbers. My main interests is with the Panzer Strengths of the Leibstandarte on various dates. I wonder if you could check with your sources and see if these numbers match. I used the numbers for July 11 and July 13, 1943 in my above lengthy post. It is interesting because none of my sources mention the PzKpfw I so that is some new information already!
Leibstandarte Panzer Strengths
July 1 (from Jentz Panzertruppen Volume II)
4 PzKpfw II, 3 PzKpfw III (kz), 10 PzKpfw III (lg), 67 PzKpfw IV, 13 PzKpfw VI
July 2 (from Lehmann Leibstandarte Volume III)
4 PzKpfw II, 12 PzKpfw III, 72 PzKpfw IV, 11 Pzkpfw VI
July 5 (from Nipe Decision In The Ukraine)
4 PzKpfw II, 11 PzKpfw III, 79 PzKpfw IV, 12 PzKpfw VI
July 11 (from Nipe Decision In The Ukraine)
4 PzKpfw II, 5 PzKpfw III, 47 PzKpfw IV, 4 PzKpfw VI
July 13 (from Nipe Decision In The Ukraine)
4 PzKpfw II, 5 PzKpfw III, 31 PzKpfw IV, 3 PzKpfw VI
I think this is very interesting because some sources give different numbers and I like to compare. I notice that Jentz lists the PzKpfw III as the "Kurz" and "Lang" (short and long barrel) whereas Lehmann and Nipe do not, they put all the PzKpfw III together. I wonder if your numbers might list anything different, just like those PzKpfw I's that Jentz, Lehmann and Nipe do not bother to list.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Thank you for the additional information! This is good! I wonder if we can compare numbers because I always like to double-check my sources and numbers. My main interests is with the Panzer Strengths of the Leibstandarte on various dates. I wonder if you could check with your sources and see if these numbers match. I used the numbers for July 11 and July 13, 1943 in my above lengthy post. It is interesting because none of my sources mention the PzKpfw I so that is some new information already!
Leibstandarte Panzer Strengths
July 1 (from Jentz Panzertruppen Volume II)
4 PzKpfw II, 3 PzKpfw III (kz), 10 PzKpfw III (lg), 67 PzKpfw IV, 13 PzKpfw VI
July 2 (from Lehmann Leibstandarte Volume III)
4 PzKpfw II, 12 PzKpfw III, 72 PzKpfw IV, 11 Pzkpfw VI
July 5 (from Nipe Decision In The Ukraine)
4 PzKpfw II, 11 PzKpfw III, 79 PzKpfw IV, 12 PzKpfw VI
July 11 (from Nipe Decision In The Ukraine)
4 PzKpfw II, 5 PzKpfw III, 47 PzKpfw IV, 4 PzKpfw VI
July 13 (from Nipe Decision In The Ukraine)
4 PzKpfw II, 5 PzKpfw III, 31 PzKpfw IV, 3 PzKpfw VI
I think this is very interesting because some sources give different numbers and I like to compare. I notice that Jentz lists the PzKpfw III as the "Kurz" and "Lang" (short and long barrel) whereas Lehmann and Nipe do not, they put all the PzKpfw III together. I wonder if your numbers might list anything different, just like those PzKpfw I's that Jentz, Lehmann and Nipe do not bother to list.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
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Roger Griffiths
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Panzeralex
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Hallo Wolfkin!
Let’s go to compare something numbers for LSSAH.
1) From Zetterling N., Frankson A. Kursk 1943: a statistical analysis.
Note: only ready for actions panzers (about all panzers see my early post)
These numbers taken by Zetterling from Tagesmeldungen PzAOK 4 Ia 4.7.43-18.7.43 (BA-MA RH 21-4/118):
July 4
4 Pz. II, 11 Pz. III lg, 79 Pz. IV lg, 12 Pz. VI, 9 Bef.Pz. III
July 5
4 Pz. II, 12 Pz. III lg, 77 Pz. IV lg, 7 Pz. VI, 9 Bef.Pz. III
July 11
4 Pz. II, 5 Pz. III lg, 47 Pz. IV lg, 4 Pz. VI, 7 Bef.Pz. III
July 13
4 Pz. II, 5 Pz. III, 31 Pz. IV lg, 3 Pz. VI, 7 Bef.Pz. III.
As you see practically too.
It is were interesting, there were not any report about Pz. III kz, but Jentz show some of them.
What do you think about it?
2) About Pz. I
It is from Kursk Database (1996) made by Dupuy Institute.
July 1
3 Pz. I
July 10
2 Pz. I
July 20
2 Pz I.
Best regards,
Panzeralex
Let’s go to compare something numbers for LSSAH.
1) From Zetterling N., Frankson A. Kursk 1943: a statistical analysis.
Note: only ready for actions panzers (about all panzers see my early post)
These numbers taken by Zetterling from Tagesmeldungen PzAOK 4 Ia 4.7.43-18.7.43 (BA-MA RH 21-4/118):
July 4
4 Pz. II, 11 Pz. III lg, 79 Pz. IV lg, 12 Pz. VI, 9 Bef.Pz. III
July 5
4 Pz. II, 12 Pz. III lg, 77 Pz. IV lg, 7 Pz. VI, 9 Bef.Pz. III
July 11
4 Pz. II, 5 Pz. III lg, 47 Pz. IV lg, 4 Pz. VI, 7 Bef.Pz. III
July 13
4 Pz. II, 5 Pz. III, 31 Pz. IV lg, 3 Pz. VI, 7 Bef.Pz. III.
As you see practically too.
It is were interesting, there were not any report about Pz. III kz, but Jentz show some of them.
What do you think about it?
2) About Pz. I
It is from Kursk Database (1996) made by Dupuy Institute.
July 1
3 Pz. I
July 10
2 Pz. I
July 20
2 Pz I.
Best regards,
Panzeralex
Hello Roger!
Hello Panzeralex!
Hey, thanks a bunch guys! Now I have lots of numbers to compare! Yes, it does look as if Nipe's numbers are pretty much the same as Zetterling's. It is odd that none of them mention the PzKpfw I except for the guys at Dupuy!
And it looks like most sources are content at simply stating the PzKpfw III kurz and lang all as simply PzKpfw III except for Jentz. I guess this shows that we can never rely on just one source and perhaps it would always be best to check as many sources as possible before we believe that we know.
Darn! And just when Ah thawt thet Ah knew what were all them durn Panzer strengths of them thar Leibstandarte Division then them durn things decide to get'n'all funny on them thar numbers!
Cheers guys!
Wolfkin
Hello Panzeralex!
Hey, thanks a bunch guys! Now I have lots of numbers to compare! Yes, it does look as if Nipe's numbers are pretty much the same as Zetterling's. It is odd that none of them mention the PzKpfw I except for the guys at Dupuy!
And it looks like most sources are content at simply stating the PzKpfw III kurz and lang all as simply PzKpfw III except for Jentz. I guess this shows that we can never rely on just one source and perhaps it would always be best to check as many sources as possible before we believe that we know.
Darn! And just when Ah thawt thet Ah knew what were all them durn Panzer strengths of them thar Leibstandarte Division then them durn things decide to get'n'all funny on them thar numbers!
Cheers guys!
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
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Roger Griffiths
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Panzeralex
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Hello Wolfkin!
Hello Roger!
Addition:
According II SS Pz. Corps records (T354 R607 F000631) LSSAH lost 1 Bef. Pz. I, as total write loss, from the 5 th through 18 th July.
Else, total loses LSSAH for the period of 7/01-7/10 from quartermaster report (T354 R612):
1 Bef.Pz. I, 1 Pz. III, 4 Pz. IV, 2 StuG III.
Best regards,
Panzeralex
Hello Roger!
Addition:
According II SS Pz. Corps records (T354 R607 F000631) LSSAH lost 1 Bef. Pz. I, as total write loss, from the 5 th through 18 th July.
Else, total loses LSSAH for the period of 7/01-7/10 from quartermaster report (T354 R612):
1 Bef.Pz. I, 1 Pz. III, 4 Pz. IV, 2 StuG III.
Best regards,
Panzeralex
5th Guards Tank Army's tank strength
Hi Reb,
As the 60th anniversary of "Battle of Kursk", the following data appeared in the "Voenno Istoricheskii Arkhiv (Military history archives) 2003/No. 03 & 2003/No. 12".
29th Tank Corps
11 July 1943
120 T-34s, 81 T-70s, 12 SU-122s, 8 SU-76s
16 July 1943
42 T-34s, 47 T-70s, 4 SU-122s, 6 SU-76s
18th Tank Corps
11 July 1943
68 T-34s, 58 T-70s, 18 Mk-IVs
16 July 1943
45 T-34s, 44 T-70s, 9 Mk-IVs
2nd Tank Corps
11 July 1943
35 T-34s, 46 T-70s, 4 Mk-IVs
16 July 1943
31 T-34s, 32 T-70s, 5 Mk-IVs
2nd Guards Tank Corps
11 July 1943
84 T-34s, 52 T-70s, 3 Mk-IVs
16 July 1943
35 T-34s, 18 T-70s, 0 Mk-IV
5th Guards Mechanized Corps
11 July 1943
120 T-34s, 56 T-70s, 10 SU-122s, 7 SU-76s
16 July 1943
57 T-34s, 33 T-70s, 9 SU-122s, 6 SU-76s
Cheers
Shingo
As the 60th anniversary of "Battle of Kursk", the following data appeared in the "Voenno Istoricheskii Arkhiv (Military history archives) 2003/No. 03 & 2003/No. 12".
29th Tank Corps
11 July 1943
120 T-34s, 81 T-70s, 12 SU-122s, 8 SU-76s
16 July 1943
42 T-34s, 47 T-70s, 4 SU-122s, 6 SU-76s
18th Tank Corps
11 July 1943
68 T-34s, 58 T-70s, 18 Mk-IVs
16 July 1943
45 T-34s, 44 T-70s, 9 Mk-IVs
2nd Tank Corps
11 July 1943
35 T-34s, 46 T-70s, 4 Mk-IVs
16 July 1943
31 T-34s, 32 T-70s, 5 Mk-IVs
2nd Guards Tank Corps
11 July 1943
84 T-34s, 52 T-70s, 3 Mk-IVs
16 July 1943
35 T-34s, 18 T-70s, 0 Mk-IV
5th Guards Mechanized Corps
11 July 1943
120 T-34s, 56 T-70s, 10 SU-122s, 7 SU-76s
16 July 1943
57 T-34s, 33 T-70s, 9 SU-122s, 6 SU-76s
Cheers
Shingo
5 Gds Tank Army
Thanks Shingo
I was surprised (but shouldn't have been) to see those Mk IV tanks on their org. Waste not want not eh?
I wish more Soviet info were available in English. Virtually everything I've read by Russian writers was written in the 'heroic' style that flourished under Communism and makes for such poor history. That really rebounded against them - most of what info is available is written by or about the Germans.
Useful stuff -I appreciate it.
reb
I was surprised (but shouldn't have been) to see those Mk IV tanks on their org. Waste not want not eh?
I wish more Soviet info were available in English. Virtually everything I've read by Russian writers was written in the 'heroic' style that flourished under Communism and makes for such poor history. That really rebounded against them - most of what info is available is written by or about the Germans.
Useful stuff -I appreciate it.
reb
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Michael Avanzini
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Reb, just so you understand, the MK IV was the Soviet designation for a British Churchill tank (lend lease). The Soviets used them in their heavy tank regiments during the Kursk battle.I was surprised (but shouldn't have been) to see those Mk IV tanks on their org. Waste not want not eh?
Regards
Michael