The question came up on the Hearts of Iron forum about the degree to which PzG were mechanized. There is a wiki entry that states 10% of all 1943 PzG battalions (including those attached to Pz Div) were mechanized but there is no indication where this information is coming from.
Does anyone know what the approximate percentages were? Did it increase during the war or remain constant?
Its one of those things I can't claim I ever thought of much, I know that Pz Divisions had 2 PzG regiments and that on paper 1 of them would be mechanized but I don't recall ever seeing anything on PzG divisions.
I asked on the wargamer forums and one suggestion was to ask here. So I am.
Degree of Mechanization in a PzG Divison
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Leo Niehorster
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By mechanized I suppose you mean equipped with armored personnel carriers? The term Panzergrenadier merely indicated that the unit belonged to the Panzertruppen. In fact, in 1944 some Panzergrenadier units were even officially equipped with bicycles.
1943 Panzer Division
In theory, one battalion of the division's four infantry battalions was supposed to be equipped with armored personnel carriers. While some in fact did, others had only a company, and again others no infantry thus equipped at all. And the numbers changed as units were engaged in battle.
1943 Panzer-Grenadier Divisions
PzGren divisions did not have any armored personnel carriers in their infantry regiments in 1943 or at any time during the war.
Cheers
Leo
1943 Panzer Division
In theory, one battalion of the division's four infantry battalions was supposed to be equipped with armored personnel carriers. While some in fact did, others had only a company, and again others no infantry thus equipped at all. And the numbers changed as units were engaged in battle.
1943 Panzer-Grenadier Divisions
PzGren divisions did not have any armored personnel carriers in their infantry regiments in 1943 or at any time during the war.
Cheers
Leo
Leo
Was there an organizational difference in the recon abteilung of a Pz Div and a Pz Gren Dir? Did the Pz Gren recon troops get things like SPW 250 and Puma?
Its confusing to keep track of the pesky Germans - just when I figured all the pz gren divs had exchanged tanks for assault guns, the 15th Pz Gren turns up in the Ardennes with Pz IV.
thanks
Reb
Was there an organizational difference in the recon abteilung of a Pz Div and a Pz Gren Dir? Did the Pz Gren recon troops get things like SPW 250 and Puma?
Its confusing to keep track of the pesky Germans - just when I figured all the pz gren divs had exchanged tanks for assault guns, the 15th Pz Gren turns up in the Ardennes with Pz IV.
thanks
Reb
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Leo Niehorster
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In theory, by mid-1943, armored recon battalions for both Pz and PzGren divisions were suposed to be the same, namely:
– one armored headquarters detachment
– one light supply column
– one armored car company (wheeled)
– one armored support gun platoon (wheeled)
– one armored car company (halftracked)
– two armored recon companies (halftracked)
– one heavy armored recon company (halftracked)
Note that the authorized organization of the battalion changed several times after this period.
In practice, both types of division had a mixed bag of recon components until the end of the war, ranging from one to three motorcycle companies plus a wheeled heavy company, to the authorized organization listed above. There were, furthermore, companies equipped with tracked armored cars, heavy wheeled armored cars equipped with a variety of guns, amphibious Volkswagens, normal Volkswagens, and light trucks; the 8th Panzer Div, for example, had its Armored Car Company (half-tracked) equipped with 3 Pz-38(t) and 12 Pz-II for lack of light SPW. The heavy companies came in all sorts of mixtures. Some companies even had medium halftracks instead of the light ones to equip the recon companies.
Same applied for the armored Waffen-SS recon battalions.
Besides saying that probably no two battalions were exactly identical, generalizations do not apply. You have to pick the division and time period you are interested in and then go looking for its organization and equipment. It's what makes "the pesky Germans" so interesting. Keeps you on your toes.
Cheers
Leo
– one armored headquarters detachment
– one light supply column
– one armored car company (wheeled)
– one armored support gun platoon (wheeled)
– one armored car company (halftracked)
– two armored recon companies (halftracked)
– one heavy armored recon company (halftracked)
Note that the authorized organization of the battalion changed several times after this period.
In practice, both types of division had a mixed bag of recon components until the end of the war, ranging from one to three motorcycle companies plus a wheeled heavy company, to the authorized organization listed above. There were, furthermore, companies equipped with tracked armored cars, heavy wheeled armored cars equipped with a variety of guns, amphibious Volkswagens, normal Volkswagens, and light trucks; the 8th Panzer Div, for example, had its Armored Car Company (half-tracked) equipped with 3 Pz-38(t) and 12 Pz-II for lack of light SPW. The heavy companies came in all sorts of mixtures. Some companies even had medium halftracks instead of the light ones to equip the recon companies.
Same applied for the armored Waffen-SS recon battalions.
Besides saying that probably no two battalions were exactly identical, generalizations do not apply. You have to pick the division and time period you are interested in and then go looking for its organization and equipment. It's what makes "the pesky Germans" so interesting. Keeps you on your toes.
Cheers
Leo
Yes that is what I meant. Frankly its not something that I ever thought about much and when I did my base line assumption would have been on the order of 33% (2 battalions out of 6 and that in 44-45). I don't recall ever seeing much in the way of a TOE for the division except in Avalon Hill's Panzer Leader design notes and a span of years seperates me from that even more than the pond does.Leo Niehorster wrote:By mechanized I suppose you mean equipped with armored personnel carriers?
Was the standard 3 regiments of 2 battalions or 2 regiments of 3 battalions?1943 Panzer-Grenadier Divisions
PzGren divisions did not have any armored personnel carriers in their infantry regiments in 1943 or at any time during the war.
Cheers
Leo
Viellen Danke für dieses information, if you don't mind I'll stick it up over on the wargamer.
Paul
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Leo Niehorster
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Mid-1943
Army PzGrenDivs had two regiments of three battalions, all motorized. (Exception was PzGrenDiv Grossdeutschland which six battalions, one of which was armored; but this was really a strong PzDiv anyway. It also used a fourth battalion headquarters to control the regimental companies, so that doesn't really count)
W-SS PzGrenDivs had three regiments of three battalions, all motorized.
Note, by W-SS PzGren I mean the ones numbered as of 1.10.43 as PzGren, not the 1., 2., 3., 5., 9., 10., 12. SS-Divs, which were know as PzGrenDivs between 1942 and Oct 1943, but were in fact PzDivs, and were so designated on 1.10.43.
Army PzDivs had two regiments of two battalions each, one battalion of which was suppposed to be armored. (See comments in post above)
SS-W PzDivs (i.e., the ones 1., 2., etc. indicated above) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
Luftwaffe PzDiv (being raised) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
Mid-1943 there were two Army PzGrenDivs (15 and 90) being raised in Italy, which were oversized and did not conform to normal Army organization, being made up of units and reinforcements that were originally destined for Tunesia but became surplus when German forces surrendered there in May. Attrition whittled them down to normal PzGren organization eventually.
PanzerLehrDiv, raised late 1943, had initially two of four battalions armored, but later the standard PzDiv organization.
The small building blocks (companies) were all very similar, and the organizations of battalion and regiment were similar - although here equipment availability dictated the composition more than a desire to have different organizations.
Cheers
Leo
PS
Have you thought about looking at my books (cough, cough) on German WII Organization? Deals with these matters in great detail.
Army PzGrenDivs had two regiments of three battalions, all motorized. (Exception was PzGrenDiv Grossdeutschland which six battalions, one of which was armored; but this was really a strong PzDiv anyway. It also used a fourth battalion headquarters to control the regimental companies, so that doesn't really count)
W-SS PzGrenDivs had three regiments of three battalions, all motorized.
Note, by W-SS PzGren I mean the ones numbered as of 1.10.43 as PzGren, not the 1., 2., 3., 5., 9., 10., 12. SS-Divs, which were know as PzGrenDivs between 1942 and Oct 1943, but were in fact PzDivs, and were so designated on 1.10.43.
Army PzDivs had two regiments of two battalions each, one battalion of which was suppposed to be armored. (See comments in post above)
SS-W PzDivs (i.e., the ones 1., 2., etc. indicated above) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
Luftwaffe PzDiv (being raised) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
Mid-1943 there were two Army PzGrenDivs (15 and 90) being raised in Italy, which were oversized and did not conform to normal Army organization, being made up of units and reinforcements that were originally destined for Tunesia but became surplus when German forces surrendered there in May. Attrition whittled them down to normal PzGren organization eventually.
PanzerLehrDiv, raised late 1943, had initially two of four battalions armored, but later the standard PzDiv organization.
The small building blocks (companies) were all very similar, and the organizations of battalion and regiment were similar - although here equipment availability dictated the composition more than a desire to have different organizations.
Cheers
Leo
PS
Have you thought about looking at my books (cough, cough) on German WII Organization? Deals with these matters in great detail.
Thank you. I think I confused the '44 infantry division organization with the motorized division organization. Could have sworn a 41 motorized division was 3 regiments of 2 battalions though.Leo Niehorster wrote:Mid-1943
Army PzGrenDivs had two regiments of three battalions, all motorized.
The TOE of a 41 Pz division in "The History of the Second World War" article dealing with the german prepartions for Barbarossa (overall editor Liddle-Hart) says 2 battalions should be mechanized but I am not sure if it matters since the number so equiped seems considerably smaller then called for in the TOE.Army PzDivs had two regiments of two battalions each, one battalion of which was suppposed to be armored. (See comments in post above)
I would have expected the SS to not only have more troops but more of the better toys as well. If they only have 1 as well...SS-W PzDivs (i.e., the ones 1., 2., etc. indicated above) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
What an astounding waste of manpower...or more importantly halftracks.Luftwaffe PzDiv (being raised) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
Are they in german or english? My german is well ok for spoken conversation but I am a tad slow reading it. I did find your website useful though my familarity with NATO symbols worked strongly in my disfavor...I spent more time trying to figure out what the symbols meant and less time on the TOE. I basically ended up with the conclusion the degree of mechanization was low given the number of Pz divisions with 4 battalions of motorized infantry.Cheers
Leo
PS
Have you thought about looking at my books (cough, cough) on German WII Organization? Deals with these matters in great detail.
*grins* Could you recommend one or two of them?
Part of the interest in this for me is was just something I had never any cause to think about before. I just ran on the assumption that PzG Divisions were re-equiped with halftracks as the war went on. Blame it on the tendancy of model makers to focus on the halftracks used for SP-(insert weapon type) I guess. The question came up over a discussion on the Hearts of Iron game forum and then proved just interesting in its own right. I am curious when the first true mechanized division did show up.
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Leo Niehorster
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Fifteen of twenty PzDivs in June 1941 only had one armored company. These divisions had four motorized infantry battalions (with one armored company somewhere) and one motorcycle battalion. The other five also had four infantry battalions and one motorcycle battalion, of which in the
1.PzDiv two were armored battalions; the 10.PzDiv one was an armored battalion; and the 14., 16., and 19. PzDivs had no armored infantry at all.
The only time the Army motorized InfDiv had three regiments (of three battalions) was in 1939. The third regiment was found to be too cumbersome, (too many motor vehicles) to keep up with the PzDivs, so it and the third light artillery battalion were removed. The number of battalions in the motorized infantry {later PzGrenRgt} division's remaining two regiments remained at three each for the entire war. Some AFV were encountered as SP'd guns in some of the regimental companies starting 1943, but by no means all these were so equipped.
The myth of W-SS superior training, equipment, and armament has been thoroughly debunked. The W-SS mechanized divisions were much the same as the Army divisions, although equipped with some extra units. On the other hand, the W-SS did not have any GHQ (non-divisional) troops for much of its existence, and liked to depend on their own resources for reinforcements, antiaircraft protection, etc. It's one of the reasons the SS-Corps had so many corps units starting in 1943. Don't confuse the LSSAH with a "standard" unit. It wasn't. It, the Grossdeutschland, and the Hermann Göring, were the elite divisions of the three services with ground combat units. I sometimes wonder why the Navy didn't have an elite Panzer Division!
Regarding my books...
Go to my website below.
Click on "My Books"
Click on "German World War II Organizational Series"
Select a year and type units
Check "Contents" and "Samples"
Enjoy.
The series is designed so that you can select those volumes of interest to you without having to purchase a big, very expensive book.
If interested, address for ordering is at bottom of page.
OK, now that we have the commercial message out of the way...
As of 1943, SPW was used in PzGrenDivs, but only in the recon battalions. The light models were used to transport the recon troops, or as the basis for halftracked armored cars, whereas the medium vehicles were used to transport or tow the weapons, or for combat engineers, in the heavy companies. Both light and medium types were used in the recon battalions as signal vehicles.
It would go too far to start enumerating all the deviations and exceptions to the standard organizations over the years. I have already written 12 books, with more to come, on this subject.
Also, if I may, I suggest you look at some of my postings (and those by others as well – possibly use the search function) here and on Axis History Forum, where many of these discussions and details have been posted before. There are also some interesting threads/insights regarding the non-elite status of the W-SS on both of these forums.
Cheers
Leo
1.PzDiv two were armored battalions; the 10.PzDiv one was an armored battalion; and the 14., 16., and 19. PzDivs had no armored infantry at all.
The only time the Army motorized InfDiv had three regiments (of three battalions) was in 1939. The third regiment was found to be too cumbersome, (too many motor vehicles) to keep up with the PzDivs, so it and the third light artillery battalion were removed. The number of battalions in the motorized infantry {later PzGrenRgt} division's remaining two regiments remained at three each for the entire war. Some AFV were encountered as SP'd guns in some of the regimental companies starting 1943, but by no means all these were so equipped.
The myth of W-SS superior training, equipment, and armament has been thoroughly debunked. The W-SS mechanized divisions were much the same as the Army divisions, although equipped with some extra units. On the other hand, the W-SS did not have any GHQ (non-divisional) troops for much of its existence, and liked to depend on their own resources for reinforcements, antiaircraft protection, etc. It's one of the reasons the SS-Corps had so many corps units starting in 1943. Don't confuse the LSSAH with a "standard" unit. It wasn't. It, the Grossdeutschland, and the Hermann Göring, were the elite divisions of the three services with ground combat units. I sometimes wonder why the Navy didn't have an elite Panzer Division!
Regarding my books...
Go to my website below.
Click on "My Books"
Click on "German World War II Organizational Series"
Select a year and type units
Check "Contents" and "Samples"
Enjoy.
The series is designed so that you can select those volumes of interest to you without having to purchase a big, very expensive book.
If interested, address for ordering is at bottom of page.
OK, now that we have the commercial message out of the way...
As of 1943, SPW was used in PzGrenDivs, but only in the recon battalions. The light models were used to transport the recon troops, or as the basis for halftracked armored cars, whereas the medium vehicles were used to transport or tow the weapons, or for combat engineers, in the heavy companies. Both light and medium types were used in the recon battalions as signal vehicles.
It would go too far to start enumerating all the deviations and exceptions to the standard organizations over the years. I have already written 12 books, with more to come, on this subject.
Also, if I may, I suggest you look at some of my postings (and those by others as well – possibly use the search function) here and on Axis History Forum, where many of these discussions and details have been posted before. There are also some interesting threads/insights regarding the non-elite status of the W-SS on both of these forums.
Cheers
Leo
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Leo Niehorster
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- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:22 am
- Location: Hannover, Germany
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I think it's possible that the Germans even today do not have a true armored division. The Bundeswehr Panzerdivision, initially, had a mixture of motorized (Unimog), mechanized (M-113 APC), and armored (Marder) infantry battalions. Frankly, I don't know if the Bundeswehr has gotten rid of the motorized battalions in the armored divisions. I lost contact with BW organizations in the 1980's.
Cheers
Leo
Cheers
Leo
Leo
Thanks for the info - much appreciated.
As to Bundeswher - I just got a book called Panzer Tactics by one Obert Schneider who served in both Whermact and BW. He said the BW got rather away from classical pz tactics for a while but is getting back on course. Not sure of the date implied with "getting back on course" with pure doctrine. And this was sort of an afterward in his book - I'd have liked to know more.
Quite a good book for those of us who love detail. (great photos as well - many I've never seen)
cheers
Reb
Thanks for the info - much appreciated.
As to Bundeswher - I just got a book called Panzer Tactics by one Obert Schneider who served in both Whermact and BW. He said the BW got rather away from classical pz tactics for a while but is getting back on course. Not sure of the date implied with "getting back on course" with pure doctrine. And this was sort of an afterward in his book - I'd have liked to know more.
Quite a good book for those of us who love detail. (great photos as well - many I've never seen)
cheers
Reb
Organisation books
Leo,
What is the likely publishing schedule for your book series focussing on the late war organisations (Dec'44 etc).
Cheers
What is the likely publishing schedule for your book series focussing on the late war organisations (Dec'44 etc).
Cheers
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Leo Niehorster
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- Posts: 544
- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:22 am
- Location: Hannover, Germany
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The material presented in my books is the result of one of my hobbies. I do research for it on and off when time allows, when I feel like it, and/or when I can get a chance to visit the archives in Freiburg. There are periods when I slide off into other interests, some completely unrelated to the German armed forces, or even (gasp) organizations. I would like to keep it as a hobby and not a commercial enterprise, obviously contrary to what my editor would like.
Right now, I am working on the early WWII infantry divisions, as well as the mobilization in 1939. Without tooting my own horn, I keep being amazed at the incredible amount of research and preparation that goes into these books. And that takes time. Officially, the next books in preparation are the 3rd and 4th Welle infantry divisions of 1939 and the 7 December 41 US Navy book.
What all this verbosity means is that there is not and (I hope) never will be a clear schedule for the appearance of the books.
Cheers
Leo
Right now, I am working on the early WWII infantry divisions, as well as the mobilization in 1939. Without tooting my own horn, I keep being amazed at the incredible amount of research and preparation that goes into these books. And that takes time. Officially, the next books in preparation are the 3rd and 4th Welle infantry divisions of 1939 and the 7 December 41 US Navy book.
What all this verbosity means is that there is not and (I hope) never will be a clear schedule for the appearance of the books.
Cheers
Leo
Re:
Pz Lehr had total four armored infantry battalion while Hermann Goering Fallschirm-Panzer division had one armored infantry battalion in its six infantry battalions but was disbanded in Oct 1944 when its separate Panzerfusilier abteilung became armored battalion.Leo Niehorster wrote:Mid-1943
Army PzGrenDivs had two regiments of three battalions, all motorized. (Exception was PzGrenDiv Grossdeutschland which six battalions, one of which was armored; but this was really a strong PzDiv anyway. It also used a fourth battalion headquarters to control the regimental companies, so that doesn't really count)
W-SS PzGrenDivs had three regiments of three battalions, all motorized.
Note, by W-SS PzGren I mean the ones numbered as of 1.10.43 as PzGren, not the 1., 2., 3., 5., 9., 10., 12. SS-Divs, which were know as PzGrenDivs between 1942 and Oct 1943, but were in fact PzDivs, and were so designated on 1.10.43.
Army PzDivs had two regiments of two battalions each, one battalion of which was suppposed to be armored. (See comments in post above)
SS-W PzDivs (i.e., the ones 1., 2., etc. indicated above) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
Luftwaffe PzDiv (being raised) had two regiments of three battalions each, one battalion of which was armored.
Mid-1943 there were two Army PzGrenDivs (15 and 90) being raised in Italy, which were oversized and did not conform to normal Army organization, being made up of units and reinforcements that were originally destined for Tunesia but became surplus when German forces surrendered there in May. Attrition whittled them down to normal PzGren organization eventually.
PanzerLehrDiv, raised late 1943, had initially two of four battalions armored, but later the standard PzDiv organization.
The small building blocks (companies) were all very similar, and the organizations of battalion and regiment were similar - although here equipment availability dictated the composition more than a desire to have different organizations.
Cheers
Leo
PS
Have you thought about looking at my books (cough, cough) on German WII Organization? Deals with these matters in great detail.