Replacement Panzers for N.Afrika

David W · Post by **David W** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:39 am

During a house move a while ago, I mislaid my details of Panzer reinforcements to N. Afrika for 1941/2. As all I am left with are the approximate dates of arrival at Tripoli. If I list the dates, can any one supply the details of the replacement Panzers? Please!

Early/Mid October 1941.

Late December 1941. (At Benghasi)

Early Januuary 1942.

Mid January 1942.

Late April 1942.

Early August 1942.

Mid September 1942.

Plus any others you may know of.

Thanks.

David W · Post by **David W** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:32 am

Can any one help PLEASE

Rich · Post by **Rich** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:17 am

David W wrote:Can any one help PLEASE

Sorry David, missed this. Here is the best I can do off hand.

Africa shipments (total arrived plus number lost in transit in parens):

8-10 March 41, 5 le.Afrika-Div. with 25 Pz I, 45 Pz II, 61 (10) Pz III, 17 (3) Pz IV
24 April-6 May 41, 21 Pz.Div. with 45 Pz II, 71 Pz III, 20 Pz IV

Replacements (release date given, all arrived between August and October 1941):
? April 41, 10 Pz III, 3 Pz IV
4 June 41, 15 Pz III, 5 Pz IV
30 June 41, 4 Pz II, 6 Pz III
10 July 41, 4 Pz III
19 December 41, 11 (11) Pz III, 34 (34) Pz IV

Monthly reported shipments:
January 42, 81 Pz III, 18 Pz IV
February 42, 75 Pz III, 22 Pz IV
March 42, 6 (3) Pz III
April 42, 14 Pz III
May 42, 33 (6) Pz III, 9 Pz IV
June 42, 2 (6) Pz III
July 42, 47 (3) Pz III, 10 Pz IV
August 42, 29 (3) Pz III, 10 Pz IV
September 42, 7 (9) Pz III, 12 Pz IV

Arrived November-December 1942:
Pz.Abtl. 190 with 7 Pz II, 52 Pz III, 10 Pz IV
10. Pz.Div. with 19 (2) Pz II, 89 (16) Pz III, 8 (12) Pz IV
s.Pz.Abtl. 501 with 25 Pz III, 20 Tiger

Arrived March-April 43:
s.Pz.Abtl. 504 with 19 Pz III, 11 Tiger
3./Pz.Regt. HG with 2 Pz III, 8 Pz IV

Replacements 1 November 42-1 May 1943:
68 (16) Pz III, 142 (28) Pz IV

So, if I can add them up right for once, 25 Pz I, 120 (2) Pz II, 727 (82) Pz III, 328 (77) Pz IV, and 31 Tiger. Note that of the 1,393 recorded as shipped, only 149 were lost in shipping to enemy action (the 13 lost in March 41 were to a shipboard fire), or just over 10 percent. OTOH note that half those shipped as critical reinforcements to Pz.A.O.K. Afrika in December 1941 were lost.

Hope that helps, I'll see if I can firm up some of the arrival dates, especially in late 42 and in 43.

Rich

P.S., sorry all, just realized I mislaid the 19 December 1941 shipment of replacement tanks in 1942, it has now been corrected.

David W · Post by **David W** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:29 am

Thanks Rich.

Rich · Post by **Rich** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:51 am

David W wrote:Thanks Rich.

You're welcome! Of course I did have to repost the damn thing about a half-dozen times to try to get it right - and yet now I note that the 28 Panzer IV sunk in transit in period 1 November 42-1 May 43 came out as 28) !

David W · Post by **David W** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:52 am

If you move the 2nd bracket 1 space to the right on an edit, that should cure it.

I want to compare the list I have got with yours, and see if we can make some collective sense out of it. I am sure we can.

Do you have deatils of which III & IV were the long barreled versions?

Also 9/42 says 7 x III shipped, 9 sunk!!, should this be 17 shipped?

nmao · Post by **nmao** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:31 am

Hello!
Hi just want to share the info i have, most of wich is the same as Rich´s info.

I II III IV VI klBef grBef Unit Date
25 45 61 17 0 3 4 PzR 5 10-11 mar 1941
0 0 10 3 0 0 0 PzR 5 8-10 mar 1941 [burned in italy]
4 0 0 0 0 0 0 PzJagAbt 605 18-21 mar41
25 0 0 0 0 0 0 PzR 5 10may41
0 45 71 20 0 4 6 PzR8 25apr-6may1941
0 0 10 3 0 0 0 PzR 5 10-14 apr 1941
0 0 15 5 0 0 0 PzR 5 04-Jun-41
0 4 6 0 0 0 0 PzR 5 & 8 30-Jun-41
0 0 4 0 0 0 0 PzR 5 & 8 10-Jul-41
0 5 17 0 0 0 0 3./PzR8 19dec41
0 6 17 0 0 0 0 7./PzR8 19dec41
0 5 17 0 0 0 0 3./PzR 5 19dec41 [sunk]
0 6 17 0 0 0 0 7./PzR 5 19dec41 [sunk]
0 20 211 49 0 0 4 PzR 5 & 8 jan-may42
0 10 34 0 0 0 0 3.&7./PzR 5 jan-may42
0 0 0 9 0 0 0 PzR 5 & 8 may42
0 0 0 1 0 0 0 PzR 5 & 8 Mai-38
0 0 76 0 0 0 0 PzR 5 & 8 jul-aug42
0 0 0 20 0 0 0 PzR 5 & 8 jul-aug42
0 0 0 11 0 0 0 PzR 5 late dec42
0 0 0 11 0 0 0 PzR 8 late dec42
0 0 6 0 0 0 0 PzAbt 190 07-Nov-38
0 7 46 10 0 0 2 PzAbt 190 12-22 nov42
0 0 25 0 20 0 0 sPzAbt 501 23nov42-jan43
0 0 19 0 11 0 0 sPzAbt 504 mar-apr43
0 19 89 8 0 0 6 PzR 7 27nov-5dec42
0 2 16 12 0 0 3 PzR 7 3dec42 [sunk]
0 0 2 8 0 0 0 3./PzR HG apr43
0 0 31 97 0 0 0 Afrika 1nov42-1may43
0 0 16 28 0 0 0 Afrika 1nov42-1may43 [sunk]
0 0 21 17 0 0 0 PzAbtGrun 15-Jan-43

54 174 837 329 31 7 25 TOTAL=1457

The shipments in june/july 41 actually arrived from august trough october.
I only have a total of 135 sunk/lost before arrival in africa, maybe Jentz forgot others...

This table was compiled from data in Panzertruppen 1&2 and Tank Combat in North Africa, both from Thomas Jentz.

Any comments, more info?

Sorry for the bad format of the table

regards,

-Nuno

David W · Post by **David W** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:30 am

Oooooooooooooooh

Now I've got three tables to compare! Good job two of them are very similar!
Thanks Nuno

Are your dates, arrival dates, dispatch dates or shipping dates?
Also, do you know which III & IV were the long barreled versions?

David W · Post by **David W** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:48 am

OK! That wasn't so difficult after all

They marry up quite nicely, coupled with what info I still had.

Just need to know from Rich & Nuno if they have a split for the long/short barreled III & IVs

Also, Rich, those September 1942 III figures please.

THANKS one & all

Cheers Dave.

Rich · Post by **Rich** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:41 am

David W wrote:Just need to know from Rich & Nuno if they have a split for the long/short barreled III & IVs

I'll see what I can find.

Also, Rich, those September 1942 III figures please.

Huh? Seven arrived and nine sunk. What else do you need?

David W · Post by **David W** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:25 pm

Quote:
Also, Rich, those September 1942 III figures please.

Huh? Seven arrived and nine sunk. What else do you need?

A brain I think!! Sorry about that

Cheers Dave.

nmao · Post by **nmao** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:21 pm

Hi!

It seems i made some typing errors

So here goes again with some corrections and comments

I II III IV VI klBef grBef Unit Date
25 45 61 17 0 3 4 ---PzR 5 ----10-11 mar 1941
0 0 10 3 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---8-10 mar 1941 [burned in italy]
4 0 0 0 0 0 0 ---PzJagAbt 605 ---18-21 mar 1941
25 0 0 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---10 may 1941
0 45 71 20 0 4 6 ---PzR8 ---25 apr - 6 may 1941
0 0 10 3 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---10-14 apr 1941
0 0 15 5 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---04 Jun 1941 [assignment dates, arrived july-august]
0 4 6 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---30 Jun 1941 [assignment dates, arrived july-august]
0 0 4 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---10 Jul 1941 [assignment dates, arrived july-august]
0 5 17 0 0 0 0 ---3./PzR8 ---19 dec 1941 [at Bengazi]
0 6 17 0 0 0 0 ---7./PzR8 ---19 dec 1941
0 5 17 0 0 0 0 ---3./PzR 5 ---19 dec 1941 [sunk]
0 6 17 0 0 0 0 ---7./PzR 5 ---19 dec 1941 [sunk]
0 20 211 49 0 0 4 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---jan-may 1942
0 10 34 0 0 0 0 ---3.&7./PzR 5 ---jan-may 1942
0 0 0 9 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---may 1942
0 0 0 1 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---Jun 1942 [DATE AMENDED]
0 0 76 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---jul-aug 1942
0 0 0 20 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---jul-aug 1942
0 0 0 11 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---late dec 1942 [ignore, should be counted in the nov42-may43 total, its just a remark to say that they´re pz IVlg]
0 0 0 11 0 0 0 ---PzR 8 ---late dec 1942 [ignore, should be counted in the nov42-may43 total, its just a remark to say that they´re pz IVlg]
0 0 6 0 0 0 0 ---PzAbt 190 ---8 Nov 1942 [DATE AMENDED] [at Bengazi]
0 7 46 10 0 0 2 ---PzAbt 190 ---12-22 nov 1942 [at Bizerte]
0 0 25 0 20 0 0 ---sPzAbt 501 ---23 nov 1942 - 24 jan 1943 [at Bizerte and Tunis (a few)]
0 0 19 0 11 0 0 ---sPzAbt 504 ---12 mar - 16 apr 1943 [at Tunis and Bizerte]
0 19 89 8 0 0 6 ---PzR 7 ---27 nov - 5 dec 1942 [at Tunis]
0 2 16 12 0 0 3 ---PzR 7 ---3 dec 1942 [sunk]
0 0 2 8 0 0 0 ---3./PzR HG ---early apr 1943 [at Tunis? and/or Bizerte?]
0 0 31 97 0 0 0 ---Afrika ---1 nov 1942 - 1 may 1943 [at ??]
0 0 16 28 0 0 0 ---Afrika ---1 nov 1942 - 1 may 1943 [sunk]
0 0 21 17 0 0 0 ---PzAbtGrun ---15 Jan 1943 [newly created in Tunisia, later becomes I/5 PzR]

54 174 837 329 31 7 25 TOTAL=1435 [no double count for the december 42 shippment]

Arrival dates at Tripoli unless it says so (maybe some in summer 42 really arrived at Tobruk, Bengazi but i don´t know).
PzAbt Grun was formed from replacement panzers that i subtracted from the total sent 1nov42-1may43. [See Panzertruppen 2, page 49]

About the lg & kz versions...i don´t have very good data but my current estimate is:
658 IIIkz, 126 IIIlg, 138 III75, 299 IVkz, 63 IVlg
The problem is that some reports don´t specify wich version, and Jentz is not very complete either.
When i have more solid more solid info i will post it.

bye

-Nuno

David W · Post by **David W** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:07 pm

On 23/10/42 There were 88 III L/60 & 30 IV L/43 present. So this number at the very least, of the long barreled models arrived before that date. I'm not sure that many more IVs would have arrived by then, but the potential would be for more than that No of IIIs, as they had been around for longer. But as usual (and rightly) the Ostfront had the priority on the newest equipment.

Kutscher · Post by **Kutscher** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:27 pm

Rich wrote: Africa shipments (total arrived plus number lost in transit in parens):

8-10 March 41, 5 le.Afrika-Div. with 25 Pz I, 45 Pz II, 61 (10) Pz III, 17 (3) Pz IV
24 April-6 May 41, 21 Pz.Div. with 45 Pz II, 71 Pz III, 20 Pz IV

Replacements (release date given, all arrived between August and October 1941):
? April 41, 10 Pz III, 3 Pz IV
4 June 41, 15 Pz III, 5 Pz IV
30 June 41, 4 Pz II, 6 Pz III
10 July 41, 4 Pz III
19 December 41, 11 (11) Pz III, 34 (34) Pz IV

I see these numbers and can't helping thinking about 6th Pz. Div.. fighting to the gates of Leningrad with only Pz. IIs and 35(t)s, and then losing ALL its armor by the end of December in the Moscow offensive. Maybe we should attribute the failure of Barbarossa to Mussolini!

David W · Post by **David W** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:31 pm

I'm sure Hitler would have wanted to blame someone