Differences between Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions?

[sid guttridge]

Can anyone detail the differences in structure between a 500-Series Grenadier division of 1944 and a 500-Series Volksgrenadier division of 1944.

I would also like to know where the manpower for these divisions came from (i.e. what year groups?) and how much training their men actually got. It was clearly abbreviated, but by how much?

As the 500-series Volksgrenadier divisions were all given the divisional numbers of existing Feldheer divisions before being committed to battle, am I right in thinking that the 500-series numbering only applied to Volksgrenadier divisions when they were still under formation in the Ersatzheer?

Many thanks,

Sid.

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Sid,

There's no difference between Grenadier and Volksgrenadier titles. In fact, these were stage 2 and 3 titles. The other day, I read the original title which was something totally uninspiring, which is why I have forgotten it already. Himmler, in his new capacity as head of the Ersatzheer developed the titles. I don't really know the detailed makeup of the personnel. I think the original idea was to utilize the survivors from the Army Group Centre defeat, but it went much beyond that.

The 29th Wave encompassed some 17 divisions numbered between 541 and 562, which were originally titled Grenadier Divisions. 4 were renumbered as pre-existing divisions and as VGD's.

Then came 6 VGD's of the 30th Wave (12, 16, 19, 36, 560, 563).

Then came 25 VGD's of the 32nd Wave numbered between 564 and 588. All these were renumbered as previously existing divisions.

Roger.

[Piet Duits]

Hi,

Originally, the 29th Wave divisions were called Sperr-Divisionen. A week after the order for raising these divisions was given, the name changed to Grenadier-Divisions.
These Grenadier-Divisions had a lot of changes from the start, eventually resulting in the 30. Welle.
The 32. Welle were renamed as Volksgrenadier-Division. These divisions had all the changes from the Grenadier-Divisions, with more changes added through its existance.
This all happened in a small timeframe of weeks.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I get the impression that the creation of the Sperr/Grenadier divisions pre-dated Himmler taking over the Ersatzheer and that it was the main reason why Stauffenberg made so many visits to Hitler in early July 1944 (four I think). Stauffenberg must have had nerves of steel to both carry out such onerous professional functions and still carry through the bomb plot.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Piet Duits]

Sid,

You're correct. The Sperr-Divisionen were ordered to be raised on 10.7.44 and were changed in name on the 17.7.44.
On 20.7.44 the 29. Welle came under the command of the Reichsführer-SS

To answer another question, I will mention 1 example: the 541. Sperr/Grenadier-Division.

Aufstellung durch BdE im Heimatskriegsgebiet zum 20.7.44 auf dem Tr.Üb.Pl. Wandern (WKr. III) (Walküre-Aufstellung) befohlen
Nr. I/ 18005/44 geh.Kdos. v. 10.7.44

BdE Befehl für Aufstellung der 541. Sperr-Div durch W.K. III unter Verwendung von Kampfmarsch-Btl. und aufgerüfenen Walküre Einheiten der Wehrkreisen, verwendungsbereit zum 20.7.44. Truppenbezeichnungen gem. BdE-Gliederung.
Aus Walküre-Vorbereitungen anderer Wehrkreisen sind aufgerufen:
a) durch W.K. II (aus Lehrtruppen Art.Schule II Groß-Born) –III. und IV./A.R. 1541, Kart.St. 1541
b) durch W.K. VI – Stb. u. Stbs.Kp. Gren.Rgt. 1074, 13./Gren.Rgt. 1074 und II./A.R. 1541
c) durch W.K. X – Stb. u. Stbs.Kp. Gren.Rgt. 1075, 13./Gren.Rgt. 1075
Nr. I/18071 g.K. v. 12.7.44 BdE

Unterstellung von Gren.Div. (29. Welle) des Heeres unter Reichsführer-SS (SS-Führungshauptamt)
Nr. I/18217 g.v. 20.7.44
Nr. I/18333 g.v. 26.7.44

Auffüllung der Div. durch 35. ID bei H.Gr. Mitte ohne Rahmen der 35. ID der zur Verfügung OKH herausgelöst sind.
Nr. I/ 18876/44 geh. Kdos v. 26.8.44/ entfällt gem. Nr. I/ 19262 geh.Kdos. v. 9.9.44 BdE

1) Aufstellung der Fla.Kp. als tbew. mot. Kp. (3,7cm oder 2cm) gefordert.
Nr. I/ 7432 geh. v. 12.7.44
1) Aufstellung der Fla.Kp. 1541 durch W.K. VIII (Liegnitz) vb. zum 31.7.44 als Fla.Kp. (tbew.mot.) befohlen.
Nr. I/ 7813/44 g. Kdos. v. 20.7.44 BdE
2) Aufstellung der Stu.Gesch.Abt. 1541 bis 1.8.44 gefordert.
Nr. I/ 18015 geh. Kdos. v. 10.7.44
2) Aufstellung der Stu.Gesch. Abt. 1541 durch W.K. I, mit vb. zum 1.8.44, unter Verwendung P.E. Pz.Jg. Ausb.u Ers.Abt. 17 auf Tr.Üb.Pl. Milau befohlen.
Nr. I/ 7630/44 geh. v. 16.7.44 BdE
2) Zuführung zur kriegsgliederungsmäß. Eingliederung befohlen.
Nr. I/ 8207/44 geh. v. 29.7.44
3) Ersatz W.K. wird noch befohlen.
Nr. I/ 7796 geh. v. 20.7.44 BdE
3) Ersatz W.K. bestimmt mit (zu I/ 7796 geh. v. 21.7.44) BdE/abgeändert gem. (I/ 8296 geh. v. 30.7.44) BdE
4) Aufstellung Feldgend.Tr. als Volleinh. durch W.K. XXI befohlen.
Nr. I/ 18071/44 geh. Kdos. v. 12.7.44 BdE
5) Aufstellung Feldpostamt 1541 als Volleinh. durch W.K. XIII zum 20.7.44 befohlen.
Nr. I/ 7371/44 geh. v.11.7. und 13.7.44
6) Aufstellung der Pi.Kp. als Pi.Kp. auf Fahrrad nach KStN 723 Sp. vom 8.7.44 befohlen.
Nr. I/7622 g.v. 16.7.44 BdE
7) KStN 433 F (für den Pak-Battr.) befohlen.
Nr. I/ 7504/44 geh. v. 22.7.44 BdE
Aufstellung einer Div.Kampfschule bei allen Gren.Div. und Div. ohne Felders.Btl. befohlen.
Nr. I/ 18630/44 geh. Kdos. v. 10.8.44
9) gem. Gültigkeitsliste befohlener Div.Nachr.Führ. als Stb. Nachr.Abt. bezeichnet. Nachr.Kp. 1541 jetzt 1./ Nachr.Abt. 1541
Nr. I/ 18833/44 geh. Kdos v. 17.8.44 Ch HNW
9) Maße der bisherige Nachr.Abt. der ehemaligen 196. ID in den Nachr.Abt. der Div. aufgegangen
Nr. I/ 11683/44 geh. v. 4.10.44
10) Befohlene Eingliederung der III./Art.Rgt. 176 (76. ID) als III./Art.Rgt. 252 bei 252. ID aufgehoben. Einglied. der III./176 unter Umbenannung in II./Art.Rgt. 1541 Kriegsgliederungsmäß. in 541. Gren.Div.befohlen. Bisherige II./Art.Rgt. 1541 gilt als aufgelöst.Anstelle der befohlenen Abgabe der P.E. III/ Art.Rgt. 252 ist H.Gr. Mitte 1 Battr. Rahmen des Art.Rgt. 1541 zur … Abt. im W.K. XX (Thorn) für Neuaufstellungen abzugeben.
Nr. I/ 10939/44 geh. v. 22.9.44


Piet

[sid guttridge]

Hi Piet,

Thanks very much for that. You have given me a very good idea of the scale of the problem.

It looks as though I need to spend a couple of days in the British Library in London reading Tessin in order to answer my own question. It is too big for Feldgrau.

I was particularly interested to see that 541 Sperr-Div. was largely made up of Walkure units. Do you know if this was true of all the Sperr/Grenadier Divisions?

Many thanks.

Sid.

[Piet Duits]

Sid,

Yes, they were.
Those divisions were created and only in a matter of a few weeks they were "ready" for combat.
Specialist units (such as the Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung, the Pionierkompanie and the Fla-Kompanie) were created in other Wehrkreise, but also from more or less combat ready troops.

These divisions were lacking supply units. The reason was simple: they simply had to rely on retreating supply units, or from previous destroyed divisions.


Piet

[Shadow]

...........of days in the British Library in London reading Tessin in order to answer my own question. It is too big for Feldgrau....................
Sid.

Hello Sid, and Piet -

Thanks Piet !! Your example of the 541st Division is excellant !!

It shows why Dr. Niehorster once mentioned to me that indepth research into the 27+ Series could fill volumes -

Best regards to all,
On Remembrance Day -

[Roger Griffiths]

Sid,

If you go to IWM, I would check first whether they have Tessin. British Library has it. IWM has Keilig and probably Burkhardt Mueller-Hillebrand.

IWM also has many Gliederungen of VGD's. AL1994/1, /2 and /3 will keep you occupied for months.

29th Wave had 541 to559, 561 and 562.

543 became 78
546 became 45
550 became 31
552 became 6

32nd Wave had 564 to 588.

Sequentially these became 183, 246, 363, 349, 256, 361, 337, 18, 340, 708, 277, 272, 271, 47, 212, 326, 276, 352, 26, 62, 9, 167, 79, 257 and 320.

This was not the end of it. 48, 211 and 264 followed.

48 and 708 VGD's were converted to ID45's as ID's in 1945.

I may have missed something, but this will give you and idea.

Roger

[sid guttridge]

Hi Roger,

Thanks.

The IWM does have Tessin. If I remember correctly, it is more complete than the BL's, which I think is missing the first introductory volume which goes through all the Welle. The BL's is also split between the main Humanities Reading Room and Official Publications Library. This is a pain, as it takes a couple of days to get the OPL volume from Yorkshire!

What now interests me is the role of the Walkure units in the creation of the Grenadier divisions. It is well known that "Walkure" was misused by the Bomb Plotters to try and raise troops to support their coup, but I have never seen it mentioned anywhere that this essentially meant the then forming Grenadier divisions, the organisation of which was Stauffenberg's responsiblity. I am going to have to go through the organisation of each Grenadier division in order to establish quite how big the Walkure call-out was that the plotters were attempting. I hope Tessin is detailed enough for this. Otherwise I will have to come crawling back to Piet!

Cheers,

Sid.

[Piet Duits]

Sid,

As a matter of fact I wondered about these Walküre, Gneisenau, Blücher etc. troops too, so I ordered some specific microfichen in Freiburg: RH 2/ 1363.
According to the guide to the RH 2 folder, it contains:

Mobilisierung von Alarmeinheiten des Ersatzheeres. = Übersichten über Gliederung, Stärken und Ausstattung der in den einzelnen Wehrkreisen aufgerufenen Verbände und Einheiten aus den "Walküre"-, "Gneisenau"- und "Blücher"-Vorbereitungen. (1944-1945) (old NARA-signature: H 1/117)

In other words, exactly what you (and I) are after!

[sid guttridge]

Hi Piet,

I have often wondered about the reason for the end of Walkure in favour of Gneisenau.

Somewhere I have a fairly clear definition of how much training a recruit had to have to be be prematurely sent to the front under Gneisenau. However, all I know about Walkure is that it was only meant to cover men who had most nearly completed training. But how much training I have never discovered.

I imagine that Gneisenau was created because by late 1944 not only was almost nobody completing full training before having to be sent to the front, but few were even completing enough training to qualify for Walkure. I imagine that as a result Gneisenau was created to despatch men to the front with even less training than under Walkure.

Have you any ideas on the differences in definition of eligibility for Walkure and Gneisenau?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Roger Griffiths]

I don't know the details, but there existed a plan to counter any uprising from whatever quarter or direction. Being in Germany, it encompassed mainly Ersatzheer formations (Ersatz Brigade GD in Berlin for example), and may well have included forming VGD's.

The clever bit was that the conspirator's planned to use this plan and the assigned formations to carry out the coup, not counter it. Fromm was ideally placed to enable this. Beck could only emerge after Hitler had been assasinated. The Beck circle was quite small and could only proceed by such a strategem.

This is why Dr. Goebbels made such a thing of winning over Remer in Berlin. It brought the Ersatz Brigade GD etc. back on side.

I expect there is a book on the 20th July plot which lays all this out in detail.

Roger

[sid guttridge]

Hi Roger,

Apparently Gneisenau was meant to cover all administrative staffs, training establishments and recruits with a minimum of four weeks training.

Aktion Leuthen used in late March 1945 emptied all Ersatzheer depots completely.

As far as I can tell, Walkure IV used in July 1944 tasked each wehrkreis with producing a mixed regimental group, three of which would form a 1944 pattern infantry division. In addition, army specialist schools were to produce an alarm unit, usually a battalion, and all Feldheer men on leave could be incorporated in Walkure alarm units.

It seems to me that the declining standards Walkure, Gneisenau and Leuthen required of men sent to the front illustrates the increasing desperation of Germany in the final months of the war. It would be nice to have their exact definitions placed side by side.

Goebbels managed to get the Berlin Wacht Battalion on side, but the rest of Ersatz Brigade Gross Deutschland never made it all the way to Berlin. It was first paralysed by lack of clear instructions from Ersatzheer HQ after elements of it had occupied a radio station south of Berlin, and then sent back to depot when the plot collapsed.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Roger Griffiths]

Yes, I think Acting Oberst Otto Remer was CO Wach Regiment Berlin. A Schwesterverbaende of GD.

Roger