Could the 75mm L48 gun of the Pzkw IV and the 75mm of the Panther use the same ammunition?
What about the 88's of the Tiger and Tiger II?
Interchangeable tank ammunition?
Moderator: sniper1shot
Hi Jeff,
No, neither type of ammunition was interchangable. The Panther's Kw.K. 42/L70 ammunition has a much larger case than that of the Panzer IVs Kw.K. 40/L48, the same goes for the Kw.K. 43/L71 and Kw.K. 36/L56. Here's a picture:
From left to right: 8,8cm Pzgr.39/1 (AP) (Kw.K. 43- Königstiger, etc.), 7,5cm Pzgr. 39 and Sprgr. (Kw.K. 42- Panther), next 4 8,8cm Flak18/Kw.K. 36 (Tiger), 12,8cm Pzgr. 43 (Pak 44- Jagdtiger).
A 7,5cm Kw.K 40 round is similar in shape to the Kw.K. 42 round only it's shorter. The other characteristic difference between the Kw.K. 42 projectiles is that they have 2 driving bands whereas all other 7,5cm Pzgr. have only one.
While the projectile diameters (caliber) are the same, there's a difference between the Kw.K. 43 and Kw.K 36 Sprgr. (HE) shells too- the former is actually a little shorter and has slightly different driving bands- it's the Sprgr. 43.
Matt
No, neither type of ammunition was interchangable. The Panther's Kw.K. 42/L70 ammunition has a much larger case than that of the Panzer IVs Kw.K. 40/L48, the same goes for the Kw.K. 43/L71 and Kw.K. 36/L56. Here's a picture:
From left to right: 8,8cm Pzgr.39/1 (AP) (Kw.K. 43- Königstiger, etc.), 7,5cm Pzgr. 39 and Sprgr. (Kw.K. 42- Panther), next 4 8,8cm Flak18/Kw.K. 36 (Tiger), 12,8cm Pzgr. 43 (Pak 44- Jagdtiger).
A 7,5cm Kw.K 40 round is similar in shape to the Kw.K. 42 round only it's shorter. The other characteristic difference between the Kw.K. 42 projectiles is that they have 2 driving bands whereas all other 7,5cm Pzgr. have only one.
While the projectile diameters (caliber) are the same, there's a difference between the Kw.K. 43 and Kw.K 36 Sprgr. (HE) shells too- the former is actually a little shorter and has slightly different driving bands- it's the Sprgr. 43.
Matt
Last edited by Matt L on Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
whoops- double post.
Last edited by Matt L on Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
tank ammo
Thanks Matt,
I had not realized you'd responded. It was not until today that my feldgrau forum page showed that there were any responses but I see by the date/times of your posts that you made them earlier.
Appreciate the info!
Jeff
I had not realized you'd responded. It was not until today that my feldgrau forum page showed that there were any responses but I see by the date/times of your posts that you made them earlier.
Appreciate the info!
Jeff
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I heard a story recently about a guy with a 7,5cm Pak40 on his front lawn... it was in Detroit, so it's probably not such a bad idea (ha).
As for me, well I don't really have to say anything... I let the ordnance speak for itself
Actually it's funny- my girlfriend has no problem with the eagles, badges, etc. even though they have *gasp* Hakenkreuze on them (because she understands that it's military, not political), but she's just not all that keen on the 'once deadly weapons' stuff; even though now they're just hunks of steel and brass... women (ha).
As for me, well I don't really have to say anything... I let the ordnance speak for itself
Actually it's funny- my girlfriend has no problem with the eagles, badges, etc. even though they have *gasp* Hakenkreuze on them (because she understands that it's military, not political), but she's just not all that keen on the 'once deadly weapons' stuff; even though now they're just hunks of steel and brass... women (ha).
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
Interchangeable ammo
Matt,
I just read in Jentz' book Sturmgeshutz III and IV that the 75mm L43 gun could shoot the ammunition for the 75mm L24 gun. It seems that in some instances the shorter cased ammo could be fired in the chambers designed for the longer cased ammo. Wouldn't that apply to Pzkw IV L48 ammo in Panthers?
Jeff
I just read in Jentz' book Sturmgeshutz III and IV that the 75mm L43 gun could shoot the ammunition for the 75mm L24 gun. It seems that in some instances the shorter cased ammo could be fired in the chambers designed for the longer cased ammo. Wouldn't that apply to Pzkw IV L48 ammo in Panthers?
Jeff
Re: Interchangeable ammo
Hi Jeff,
Either you misread it slightly, or Jentz made a mistake because the ammuntion of the 7,5cm Kw.K. L/24 and that of the 7,5cm Kw.K. 40 L/43 was definitely not interchangable.
Now it is true that the Kw.K and Stu.K of the Panzers and Sturmgeschütze, respectively, were essentially the same weapon- that is to say that the 7,5cm Kw.K. L/24 and 7,5cm Stu.K. L/24 were the same and used the same ammunition, as were and did the 7,5cm Kw.K. 40 and the 7,5cm Stu.K. 40. It's just as is the case for the big 8,8cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 ammunition was also used in the Pak 43, and ammunition crates were marked for both weapons.
It's the chamber size and shape that determines what ammunition can be used in a particular weapon. The Panther's Kw.K. 42 L/70 only took one kind of ammunition- the one I show in the picture. The short 7,5cm Kw.K. L/24 (the 'Stummel') took ammunition that had a case only about the same length as the projectile, so very short. The larger 7,5cm Kw.K. 40 L/43 and L/48 fired the same ammunition- which, as I mentioned before, is similar in shape to the rounds of the 7,5cm Kw.K. 42 L/70, but was shorter.
Here are pictures of all three types:
7,5cm Kw.K. L/24
7,5cm Kw.K. 40 L/43 and L/48
7,5cm Kw.K.42 L/70
Either you misread it slightly, or Jentz made a mistake because the ammuntion of the 7,5cm Kw.K. L/24 and that of the 7,5cm Kw.K. 40 L/43 was definitely not interchangable.
Now it is true that the Kw.K and Stu.K of the Panzers and Sturmgeschütze, respectively, were essentially the same weapon- that is to say that the 7,5cm Kw.K. L/24 and 7,5cm Stu.K. L/24 were the same and used the same ammunition, as were and did the 7,5cm Kw.K. 40 and the 7,5cm Stu.K. 40. It's just as is the case for the big 8,8cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 ammunition was also used in the Pak 43, and ammunition crates were marked for both weapons.
It's the chamber size and shape that determines what ammunition can be used in a particular weapon. The Panther's Kw.K. 42 L/70 only took one kind of ammunition- the one I show in the picture. The short 7,5cm Kw.K. L/24 (the 'Stummel') took ammunition that had a case only about the same length as the projectile, so very short. The larger 7,5cm Kw.K. 40 L/43 and L/48 fired the same ammunition- which, as I mentioned before, is similar in shape to the rounds of the 7,5cm Kw.K. 42 L/70, but was shorter.
Here are pictures of all three types:
7,5cm Kw.K. L/24
7,5cm Kw.K. 40 L/43 and L/48
7,5cm Kw.K.42 L/70
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
Actually, here's a little more information that might help:
7,5cm Kw.K. 40 case dimensions:
length: 50cm
base circumference: 32.4cm
7,5cm Kw.K. 42 case dimensions:
length: 63.5cm
base circumference: 35.7cm
So, you can see just by these numbers, a chamber bored out for one type of round would never accept another- it would either be too big or two small for the space.
Matt
7,5cm Kw.K. 40 case dimensions:
length: 50cm
base circumference: 32.4cm
7,5cm Kw.K. 42 case dimensions:
length: 63.5cm
base circumference: 35.7cm
So, you can see just by these numbers, a chamber bored out for one type of round would never accept another- it would either be too big or two small for the space.
Matt
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate- "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily'' William of Ockham
interchangeable ammo
Hello Matt,
Your pictures and dimensions are convincing butI have a hard time believing that Jentz and Hilary Doyle (authors) would have made that mistake.
I remember reading about a case in North Africa where the German 75mm tank rounds were being test fired out of Grant 75mm guns. The remote test was successful despite the chamber differences. It seems to me that there would be cases where such things were possible but "not advisable" in the very least they would cause excessive barrel wear not to mention the danger to the crew.
Your pictures and dimensions are convincing butI have a hard time believing that Jentz and Hilary Doyle (authors) would have made that mistake.
I remember reading about a case in North Africa where the German 75mm tank rounds were being test fired out of Grant 75mm guns. The remote test was successful despite the chamber differences. It seems to me that there would be cases where such things were possible but "not advisable" in the very least they would cause excessive barrel wear not to mention the danger to the crew.
Reminds me of a book on battle of Berlin I've read some years ago. The german forces (if they were still to be considered as a real army by then) had belgian rifles in which only italian and belgian bullets could be used, but at the same time the belgian bullets didn't fit into italian riffles and so on... (it's just an example although I think you get the idea of what I wanted to say?)
best,
Nibelung
best,
Nibelung
There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --