SdKfz 251s in the West in December 1944

[Ron Klages]

I have had a opportunity to cover all of the books published todate by Jeff Dugdale and I put together a listing of the Sdkz 251s by Panzergrenadier Regiment as of 16 December 1944 in the west. This covers all the Panzer Divisions in the west on that date with the exception of the 1SS and 12SS Panzer Divisions. Dugdale has yet to publish that data. It is planned for his next book. Here is the data for the others:

The 1944 Panzer-Division authorized the following 251s for the armored PG regiment in the division.

251/1=41
251/2=6
251/3=19
251/4=6
251/8=1
251/9=12
251/11=7
251/16=6
251/17=21
Total=119

Here is what they had on 16 December 1944:

• PGRgt. 901 of Panzer Lehr Division
251/1=59
251/2=8
251/3=23
251/9=17
Total=107

• PGRgt. 2 of the 2. PD
251/1=71
251/2=8
251/3=15
251/8=1
251/9=8
Total=103

• PGRgt. 10 of the 9.PD
251/1=34
251/2=1
251/3=8
251/7=6
251/8=2
251/9=1
251/21=7
Total=59

• PGRgt. 11 of the 9.PD
251/1=19
251/3=6
251/9=4
251/21=10
Total=39

• PGRgt. 110 of the 11. PD
251/1=33
251/2=4
251/3=10
251/7=4
251/8=1
251/9=11
251/11=Total=65

• PGRgt. 60 of the 116.PD
251/1=33
251/2=9
251/3=11
251/7=6
251/8=1
251/9=9
251/11=2
251/16=6
251/21=6
Total=83

• PGRgt. 125 of the 21.PD
no 251s just 15 French P-107s

•SS PGRgt. 20 of the 9. SSPD
251/1=15
251/2=1
251/3=13
251/8=1
251/9=11
251/11=3
Total=44

• SSPGRgt. 21 of the 10. SSPD
251/1=38
251/2=7
251/3=8
251/6=1
251/7=3
251/8=1
251/9=1
251/11=3
251/16=4
250/3=2 yes the light SPW

• SSPGR 4 of the 2.SSPD
251/1=41
251/2=6
251/3=11
251/8=2
251/9=12
251/11=5
251/21=15
Total=92

If you look at the totals of 251s as a average then the 10 PG Rgts average 67.5 251s versus an authorized figure of 119 or 56.7%. If you leave out the 21 PD then the average goes up to only 73.3 251s or 61.6%. In otherwords the armored infantry of the panzer divisions in the west in mid December 1944 were just slightly above half armored. The use of trucks was the mode of transportation. If you look at the units at the start of Normandy when the units were near to fully equipped with the 251s, then the losses suffered in June through August were never adequately replaced.

In fact the development of the Panzer Brigades and their authorized allocations of 251s, as well as the panzers, really was a waste of resources that should have been issued to the Panzer Divisions.

In my opinoin, such figures show the end was near for the Wehrmacht.

I felt that this data should be shared so enjoy.

Best regards to all,

Ron

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Ron,

Are you sure about PD44 figures. You have SPW 251/4's and no SPW 251/7's. Also, I don't recognize figures for /3, /11 and /17.

PD44 used KStN's dated 1Apr44 and 1Jul44, but there were wholesale revisions dated 1Nov44. That might not matter in all cases so much because I have WSS docs. that quote using 1Apr44 KStN's.

Roger

[Reb]

Ron

Thanks for post. That kind of info is always of interest.

cheers
Reb

[Reb]

I checked Reynold's 'Men of Steel' for figures on I SS Pz K.

III/ 26 SS PGR - 118 (all types) SPW

He is inconclusive for 1 SS Pz but states that Peiper's group which included the armd inf bn had 149 SPW total -that figure would include pioneers but I don't know if it includes the SP flak wagons attached from the Heer.

He noted more certainty with the HJ figures than the other.

Period is noted as approximately same time frame as Ron's.

Cheers
Reb

[V. Andries]

Ron,

Thanks for compiling those numbers.

Since you've got figures for 11. Pz, 116. Pz, 10. SS-Pz, I wonder whether Dugdale's Vol. I, part 4B has indeed been published?
I regularly check the Military Press' site and it still shows the work 'in preparation, publication in February 2004'.
I contacted the publisher but never got a reply... They couldn't help me in the military bookstore either last time I got there.

Was there a change in publisher? How to contact them?

thanks in advance,

Andries

[Ron Klages]

Roger,

I rechecked the Dugdale data and you are correct. My typing was in error and I never checked the typing. Sorry about that.

The 1944 Panzer-Division authorized the following 251s for the armored PG regiment in the division.
In total
251/1=43
251/2=6
251/3=20
251/7=6
251/8=1
251/9=12
251/11=7
251/16=6
251/17=18
Total=119

Here are the breakdowns by organization
Regiment-stab
251/3=6
251/11=3
Total=9

Battalion Stab
251/3=3
251/8=1
251/11=2
Total=6

1st Company
251/1=11
251/2=2
251/3=2
251/9=2
251/17=6
Total=23

2nd Company
251/1=11
251/2=2
251/3=2
251/9=2
251/17=6
Total=23

3rd Company
251/1=11
251/2=2
251/3=2
251/9=2
251/17=6
Total=23

4th Company-Heavy company
251/1=7
251/3=3
251/9=6
251/11=1
Total=17

9th Company-Inf. Gun Company[Grille]
251/1=3
251/3=1
251/11=1
Total=5

10th Company-engineer company
251/3=1
251/7=6
251/16=6
Total=13

The regiments other battalion and its 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th companies were not armored so the vehicles used were trucks rather than SPWs. If the second battalion in the regiment had a second Inf. gun company[Grille] then there would be an additional 1x 251/3, 3x 251/1 and 1x 251/11.

This is the data shown by Dugdale. By the time of of the Ardennes the 251/17 was being replaced by the 251/21.


Ron

[Ron Klages]

Andries,

Dugdales 4B is out. I have had mine for around 10 days. He has had to use 4C to cover the 1SSPD and 12SSPD in December 1944. Apparently he has much data on those two units that will require a separate volume in the series.

I got my volume from helion but I am sure Military Press will have it also.

Ron

[Hans Weber]

Well Gents
I think the theoretical Soll relevant to the Ardennes PGR is exactly as Dugdale puts it: 120 SPW:

Stab und Stabskompanie: 9 (6 x 251/3 plus 3 x 251/11)

Stab Pz Gren Btl.: 6 (3 x 251/3, 2 x 251/11 plus 1 x 251/8 )

3 x 23 Pz Gren Kp: 69, Kp has 10 x 251/1, 2 x 251/2, 2 x 251/3, 2 x 251/9 and 7 x 251/17, note this is the KStN 1114 type c dated 1.7.44

schwere Kp: 17 (7 x 251/1, 2 x 251/3, 6 x 251/9, 2 x 251/11)

Pionier Kp Ausf B: 14 (1 x 251/3, 6 x 251/7, 6 x 251/16, 1 x 251/17)


s IG Kp: 5 (3 x 251/1, 1 x 251/3, 1 x 251/11)

I agree with Roger, the relevant KstN for the Pz Gren Rgts were the ones from July and April 44 and not November 44 for the Divisions that I could obtain info on.

I don't think the Pz. Brigades were a waste of men and material. There is no use in issuing hardware to burnt out units. The Panzerdivisions which fought in Normandy took more than two months to be rebuilt. The Brigades were there in time and were one factor in halting the Allies in autumn 44. Also, the major factor limiting German offensive capabilities was not the lack of material, but the lack of gasoline. Don't think that the Ardennes would have been a success with fully equipped armour neither. The supply problem would have been even worse.

See also : http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... r+brigades



HTH
Cheers
Hans

[Hans Weber]

Reb

Peiper didn't have 149 SPW with him. This is more than LAH had for the whole offensive. The unit was like the other Divisions put on a Notsoll (emergency authorised strength) of 135 SPW. Only in December the allowance was raised to 150 SPW (same with HJ), but the 15 x 251/21 Drillinge this was supposed to mean were still in transit on New Years Eve.... Probably not so with HJ, see below, and some Drillinge (and Zwillinge) could have been mounted as makeshift solutions on some of the SPWs in LAH. Let's wait and see what Mr. Dugdale has in store for us.

The number of 118 for HJ is again correct for the whole Division:

Pz. Rgt: 3
Pz. Gren Rgt 25: 2
Pz. Gren Rgt. 26: 63
Pz. Aufkl. Abt: 24
Pz. Jg. Abt: 1
Pz. Pi Abt.: 12
Pz. Nachr. Abt.: 13

This is per 8.12.44.

Note that the numbers Ron compiled are only for the armoured Pz.Gren Rgt, in this case this would mean 63 SPW, the unit was badly understrength.

The exact variants in III./Pz Gren 26 per 8.12.44 are:

Stab: 3 x 251/3, 1 x 251/8, 1 x 251/11 = 5 out of 6
1. Kp: 3 x 251/3, 2 x 251/3, 2 x 251/9 = 7 out of 19 (sorry, not my fault the KStN 1.7.44 was kind of adapted in HJ, hope you see with this example why this business is so tough)
2. Kp: 2 x 251/1, 1 x 251/2, 4 x 251/3, 3 x 251/9 = 10 out of 19
3. Kp: 5 x 251/1, 2 x 251/3, 3 x 251/9, 1 x 251/11= 11 out of 13 (again, sorry if this runs against all regulations, but this unit was not supposed to have the 6 x 251/17 the others have, don't know why)
4. Kp: 6 x 251/1, 6 x 251/2, 2 x 251/3, 1 x 251/7, 6 x 251/9, 1 x 251/11 (22 out of 17)

As you see, reality is quite a difference to all theory. Just in time, a number of Drillinge arrived. The Regiment sports 9 of these items on a Gliederung dated 31.12.44.

Cheers
Hans

[Roger Griffiths]

Dugdale has not chosen the right KStN for armoured panzer grenadier company in PD44. 6 X SPW 251/17 sounds like 1114a, 1July44 to me.

I had a bit of a job figuring out which KStN's applied to PD44. Keilig gives the personnel totals by unit and I then sought out all the KStn's that could apply. By deduction I managed it. There were lists of applicable KStN's to divisions or division type but I did'nt find one for PD44.

My results agree with Hans's.

Hans, Dugdale is using the alternative tabular reports which go into more detail, the 8th December ones you referred to. He has, however found something else, ie softskin detail by company which is something I have not found.

Roger

[V. Andries]

Thanks for that info, Ron.

Interesting thread!

[Reb]

Hans

Perhaps the 149 figure did indeed include the Heer flak wagons that
accompanied Peiper's KG? I'm not certain but I believe those were mostly 2 cm pieces mounted in SPWs. Please feel free to correct me
if I'm wrong.

Thanks
Reb

[Hans Weber]

Hello Roger

I think we only differ with Ron regarding the 251/17 Zugführer waggon in the Pionier Kp.

Yes, sometimes the reports on the armoured Btl. have survived and Dugdale is using them if they are available. Transcripts of various examples are in his books. As you know, some details on softskin vhc can be gained by the Ist-lists giving the number of each vhc, also, but not smaller than Btl or Rgt level. These are available regarding HJ. But the exact distribution of the vhc down to Kp level with the unarmoured vhc is something unprecedented. As you said, no such info is easily obtainable. The system used for the detailed Meldungen with the lists we talk about was installed during September 44 by Gen. Pz. Trp. West for the units refreshing under his umbrella. Thanks to this, we have some very detailed info, but usually not to Dugdale's level. Also Dugdale must have access to various Panzerlage-Meldungen I couldn't locate yet. I suspect they could be in Corps level up or Army Group level documents, Unfortunately, there is next to nothing on 6. Pz. Armee and I. SS. Pz. Korps for the relevant period. I'm about to check all the offices that are mentioned on the "Verteiler". I hope I can get some info in the material of the Gen Qm of the WH and of Heeresgruppe B, if this doesn't yield more info, I will patiently wait and pray that Dugdale adds his sources as a finishing touch to his masterwork :)

Cheers
Hans

[Hans Weber]

Hello Reb

No, he didn't imho. Reynolds simply added all the deliveries found in RH 10/349 and RH 10/350 which amount to 149 SPW in LAH. He then ignored RH 10/352 which shows that the last delivery, which went on its way on 11.12.44 and consisted of 15 251/21, was still in transit on 30.12.44. He then gave all the SPW to KG Peiper, ignoring the fact that KG Knittel also had its share of SPWs. If the reports are correct, his numbers are wrong.
The Flak guns of LW Flak Abt 84 were not mounted on SPWs (ie. 251 or 250er variants), neither.

Cheers
Hans

[Nat]

According to Scheibert, there were 7 flak 2cm in each of the 3 gep pzgrenadier companies, suggesting 7 sdkfz251/17 and not 6 as suggested by Dugdale. If so? Then probably the 11 sdkfz 251/1 mentioned previously would rather be 10, to make up the total of 23 vehicles.