Command Structure - Occupation of Czechoslovakia - 1938?

[Shadow]

Hello Troops,

Reference: the command structure for the Occupation of Czechoslovakia circa September 1938:

I know that HGrp.Kdo.-1 controlled AOK’s 14 – 12 – 10 – 8 – 2. and HGrp.Kdo. – 2 was on standby to control AOK’s 3 – 4., but, was there a higher HQ’s (stab) in existence to control AOK’s 1 – 5 – 7 on the western front, or did they come under direct O.K.H. command?

Thanks for your assistance, in advance,

[Stauffenberg]

Hi Shadow!

You actually raise an interesting topic.

In Sept. 1938 GE had 5 active (Peace) Army Groups (1-5), but the planned (!) OoB shows 2 (War) Army Groups and 10 Armies, i. e. 12 higher staffs.

In Sept. 1939 GE had 6 active (Peace) Army Groups (1-6), but 3 (War) Army Groups and 8 Armies, i. e. 11 higher staffs, one less than a year before? But maybe the Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres (BdE) was the 12th missing staff.

I think that the rallye was led by Rundstedt (Army Group 1 & OB Ost). Some mob-staffs were indeed set up (Leeb & Manstein, 12. Armee). The already retired Leeb got his promotion to Generaloberst on 01.11.1938, backdated 01.03.1938 (3).

I think some of the staffs/units were not set up at all. I think the 7th Army (Seutter & Model) for example were not set up. Am not sure what Army Group´s 2 job would have been. If this staff was to derive from the active Army Group 2 & OB West (Frankfurt am Main), this unit would most probably had to take control over the West units (as happened 1 year later), but could have switched easily to control No. 3 and 4.

No. 3 would have had to take over the job of the 8th Army (Hindenburg) in WWI, as stand alone reserve against the East. But now together with No. 4 (Pomerania) because of the missing continental link to East-Prussia.

Just a guess!

There is a nice pic of this time available at ebay.de, showing Brauchitsch & Rundstedt & Weidling (with air ship badge below the Iron Cross 1st Class 1914) & allegedly Reichenau. 3 Fieldmarschals pictured! Caption says former German city Odrau in the Czech Republic, today ethnically cleansed Odry, but I´m not sure about the place.

See:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... gory=15504



Stauffenberg

[Shadow]

Friend Staffenberg

Great picture ! Never seen that one before !

As to my question, you touched on the part that was puzzling me - the missing 12th Stab !!

I can see I'm going to have to dig deeper into this.

Thanks for your information, as always -

Best regards -

[Stauffenberg]

Let´s see if we can compare Sept. 1938 and Sept. 1939:

Sept. 1938 vs. Sept. 1939
HGr. 1 & OB Ost (Rundstedt) = AOK 2, later HGr. Nord (Bock)
HGr. 2 & OB West (Adam) = HGr. C (Leeb, replaced Adam and Witzleben)

AOK 1* = AOK 1* (Witzleben, replaced by Leeb)
AOK 2* = ?
AOK 3* = AOK 3* (Küchler)
AOK 4* = AOK 4 (Kluge)
AOK 5* = AOK 5* (Liebmann)
AOK 7* (Seutter) = AOK 7* (Dollmann, replaced Seutter)
AOK 8 (Bock) = AOK 8 (Blaskowitz)
AOK 10 = AOK 10 (Reichenau)
AOK 12* (Leeb) = HGr. Süd* (Rundstedt, Leeb replaced Adam and Witzleben)
AOK 14 = AOK 14 (List)

* mob forces

To me it looks like that AOK 2 wasn´t raised in 1939. Instead Heeresgruppe 1 was temporarily renamed AOK 2 on 26.08.1939.

Maybe the original staff of the 2. Armee really became Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres (BdE), i. e. Home Army. Cdr. was the Mob-General Gen. d. Inf. Joachim von Stülpnagel, from 26.08.1939 until 31.08.1939, when he was fired. Stülpnagel was former head of the Operations-Department and one of the best pre-war soldiers. Actually he had been a candidate for becoming Supreme Commander, but instead Hammerstein (surprisingly) became in 1930.

[Shadow]

HGr. 1 & OB Ost (Rundstedt) = AOK 2, later HGr. Nord (Bock)
AOK 2* = ?
To me it looks like that AOK 2 wasn´t raised in 1939. Instead Heeresgruppe 1 was temporarily renamed AOK 2 on 26.08.1939.
Maybe the original staff of the 2. Armee really became Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres (BdE), i. e. Home Army.

Confusing indeed. From the entry in Lexicon der Wehrmacht, which I have very loosely translated as:

"AOK-2: Set up on 26 August 1939 from the Gen.Kdo.-1. The army was renamed at the beginning of the Poland campaign, starting from 2 September 1939, as Heeresgruppe “Nord”. Again set up on 20 October 1939 by renaming AOK-8 during its transfer of Poland to the west border."

I am stuck with the conclusion that:
1. Gen.Kdo.-1 is re-named AOK-2 (for some unkown reason), and then is re-named HGrp."Nord" sometime in the period 26 Aug. to 01 Sept.
2. "AOK-2", obviously, was not in existance prior to 26 Aug. 1939.
3. therefore: stab AOK-2 must have been either de-mobilized, or had it's name changed, between Czech. occupation and Polish Invasion, thus accounting for our "missing" 12th HQ.

So - stab Ersatz Army could have been formed from stab AOK-02, but I have no documentation confirming this.

As far as Czech. occupation goes, possibly one of the 3 remaining peacetime army HQs could've been activated, as a HGrp. to control the 3 western armies.

Best regards -

[Stauffenberg]

So - stab Ersatz Army could have been formed from stab AOK-02, but I have no documentation confirming this.

That´s my guess, too. But a further link ... the BdE (Joachim Stülpnagel) was indeed a Mob-General!

As far as Czech. occupation goes, possibly one of the 3 remaining peacetime army HQs could've been activated, as a HGrp. to control the 3 western armies.

You mean Heeresgruppe 3 (Bock, mob: 8th Army), Heeresgruppe 4 (Reichenau, mob: 10th Army) and Heeresgruppe 5 (List, mob: 14th Army)?

S.

[Stauffenberg]

He Shadow,

seems that our problem arised from our source that seems to be wrong. Seems that there was no Heeresgruppe 1 to lead the Armies against the Czech Republic. Seems that (peace time) Heeresgruppe 1 in fact already was 2nd Army in 1938. See a very trustful source:
http://home.t-online.de/home/hgkampe/

23.09.1938
Mobilmachung der zum Angriff auf die Tschechoslowakei angesetzten Armeeoberkommandos und ihrer Nachrichten-Stäbe:
AOK 2 durch: H.Gru.Kdo. 1 in: BERLIN Fü.Stelle: OPPELN Generaloberst v. Rundstedt,
A.Nafü 2 Höh.NaOffz. 1 BERLIN Oberst Oberhäußer
F.NaKdtr. 2 WK. III BERLIN Oberst Pleger
AOK 8 H.Gru.Kdo. 3 DRESDEN FREIBURG Generaloberst v. Bock
A.Nafü 8 Höh.NaOffz. 3 DRESDEN Oberst Mehnert
F.NaKdtr. 3 WK. III Oberst Dohne
AOK 10 H.Gru.Kdo. 4 LEIPZIG SCHWANDORF General d. Artl. v. Reichenau
A.Nafü 10 Höh.NaOffz. 4 DRESDEN Oberst Gerke
F.NaKdtr. 6 WK. III Oberst Meißner
AOK 12 Gen.Kdo. VII. AK MÜNCHEN PASSAU Generaloberst v. Leeb
A.Nafü 12 Kdr. der Na.Tr. VII MÜNCHEN Oberstleutnant Oschmann
F.NaKdtr. 1 WK. III Generalmajor Schauwecker
AOK 14 H.Gru.Kdo.5 WIEN GÖPFRITZ General d. Inf. List,
A.Nafü 14 Höh.NaOffz. 5 WIEN Oberst Schrader
F.NaKdtr. 5 WK. III Oberstleutnant Kohlhauer
Gen.Kdo. IV. AK Gen.Kdo. IV. AK DRESDEN HERRNHUT

So obviously only 11 higher staffs in 1938.

Regards!

[Shadow]

Hello again Stauffenberg,

OK, but how do I explain away this thread, which I've always found pretty accurate:

http://www.geocities.com/kumbayaaa/gero ... x1938.html

It states that HGrp-1 WAS activated (HGrp-2 wasn't), and also shows a seperate entry for an AOK-2 ??

Of course, if HGrp-2 was never activated, that would bring the number of higher HQs down by one also, wouldn't it ?

FWIW

Best regards friend -

[Stauffenberg]

Hmm,

I consider the "source"
http://home.t-online.de/home/hgkampe/

to be very serious and would it rate higher than the "Kumbaya-page". It was written by an military historican and an academic twice educated person. Moreover it makes perfect sense.

As regards the "Kumbaya-page":
http://www.geocities.com/kumbayaaa/gerob1x1935.html
The 1935 OoB has a lack of a whole Corps (VIII., with 8. and 18. Division).

This is my thought of the 1938 operations plan:

OKH (Brauchitsch, Beck)

- 2. Armee (Rundstedt, Salmuth) - from HGr. 1
- 8. Armee (Bock, Felber) - from HGr. 3
- 10. Armee (Reichenau, Bernard Kurt) - from HGr. 4
- 12. Armee* (Leeb, Manstein)
- 14. Armee (List, Ruoff) - from HGr. 5

- HGr. 2 (Adam, Apell Georg)
-- 1. Armee*
-- 5. Armee*
-- 7. Armee* (Seutter, Model)

- 3. Armee*
- 4. Armee*

5 peace units, 6 mob units (*)

For the dislocation of the higher staffs until 1937 also see another signals webpage:
http://www.fm-ring.de/pdf/Beilage_Zosse ... _01-02.pdf

Regards!

[Shadow]

I consider the "source"
http://home.t-online.de/home/hgkampe/
to be very serious and would it rate higher than the "Kumbaya-pageRegards!

Stauffenberg,

I agree totally! Just finished reading all !
Your breakdown for 1938 makes perfect sense to me !!

("Kumbaya" now banished to the garbage!)

NEVER argue with the "Signals" people, reminds me of the story:

Signals Corporal and an Infantry Lieutenant are arguing over map references. The Lt. points to the map and says "we're here". The Cpl. says "no sir, we're 2 miles south of that point". Lt. says "don't argue with me Cpl., I know where I am!". The Cpl. responds "fine sir, but when your phone rings - IT will be 2 miles south of here!".

[Jason Long]

The Kumbuyaaa page is definitely not to be trusted. Not least because 3. leichte Div. and 4. Panzer Div. didn't yet exist in October. They weren't formed until November. There are also questions about the corps assignments given since I'm fairly certain 2. leichte Div. wasn't in Eastern Austria, although Van Manteuffel is annoyingly silent on the issue.

Jason

[Shadow]

Thanks Jason !

As I said, "Kumbaya" now safely placed in "file 13"!

[Stauffenberg]

Hi all!

Jason you are quite right. Didn´t realize it earlier, unfortunately.

Maybe this is actually a forwarded plan for Operation Grün (March, 1939)? Oh well. Most frustrating is the lack of sources for both military operations. IMHO WWII actually started on 15.03.1939.

Signals Corporal and an Infantry Lieutenant are arguing over map references. The Lt. points to the map and says "we're here". The Cpl. says "no sir, we're 2 miles south of that point". Lt. says "don't argue with me Cpl., I know where I am!". The Cpl. responds "fine sir, but when your phone rings - IT will be 2 miles south of here!".

[Jason Long]

Stauffenburg,
I'm not sure that I'd go quite that far, but the occupation of Bohemia-Moravia certainly did change the West's opinion of Hitler. It was the first agreement that Hitler broke that he'd made himself, which was arguably a huge mistake on his part. It proved to the West that he was untrustworthy. Without it, the West might never have declared war when the Germans invaded Poland. Granted the German economy might have collapsed without the Czech foreign exchange and gold reserves and the Wehrmach certainly would have missed the 400+ tanks and the weapons, which mainly equipped the SS and the 5th welle divisions of the Heer at this period of the war.

But Hitler wanted war, glorious war, sooner rather than later and was believed that the West would always back down.

Jason

[Stauffenberg]

Hi Jason!

You raise a very interesting topic.

I'm not sure that I'd go quite that far, but the occupation of Bohemia-Moravia certainly did change the West's opinion of Hitler. [...] Without it, the West might never have declared war when the Germans invaded Poland.

Could well be. You are right. A rallye against Poland (with the alleged aim to retake the land lost by the Versailles treaty) could have been without consequences, like the occupation of the Rhineland (which British considered as being a walk in the own front garden), the Saarland and the Sudetenland, ....

But you already stated:

But Hitler wanted war [...]