I've seen documentaries about the Eastern Front and noted that troops riding tanks into battle are usually Russian. German troops on tanks are usually depicted on a road as part of a convoy travelling somewhere. The movies show Allied and Axies troops riding tanks, hiding behind tanks, and running along side tanks into battle. I believe the Russians did it because they didn't much care about causalties and the Americans did it because they were inexperienced. I don't believe German troops did it. Armour is a top priority target on the battlefield and draws all kinds of fire from the ground and air. Infantry would be advised to avoid armour on the battlefleid. Yes, infantry supports armour but not as close as depicted in popular movies. And riding on top of a tank into battle is absolute suicide.
Any comments?
Horrido!
Troops riding tanks into battle
Troops riding tanks into battle
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Dragunov
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i have a pic in a book on the battle of thy bulge which depicts some jerries riding a panther, so many troops that the tank wouldn't be able to fire anything or even traverse its turret. that's probably because production was being bombed, and they needed to go somewhere quickly.
i think that tank-riding infantry is very cost efficient. sure beats making APCs and such, but the infantry better hop off when the shootin starts.
i think that tank-riding infantry is very cost efficient. sure beats making APCs and such, but the infantry better hop off when the shootin starts.
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phylo_roadking
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L., I grew up "knowing" that this was a properly instituted practice in the Red Army, and their way of keeping support infantry up with the tanks....remembering that the Russians didn't have any form of armoured or even lightly-armoured frontline infantry vehicle., AS for air attack - Am tempted to say that towards the end of the war this was rather infrequent....! but before that it really doesnt take long to slide off a tank, a "parachute roll" is easy to learn and if it stops you breaking limbs from 2000feet it should do the same from 6! Obviously as a tactic it wouldnt suit every battle, and it certainly wouldn't do anything for your general chances of curvival at the pointy end, but the tanks have their support and the sodiers have SOME cover until the last minute.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
The Russians sometimes rode their tanks into battle - at least until the opening shots and in theory later than that when required.
The Germans used the tanks for transportation to the front sometimes dismounted before the shooting started.
The Germans had the edge with their armoured infantry in SPWs but never a whole lot.
Anybody whose read a few books may now beat me to death for over generalizing and lash me with sharp anecdote!
cheers
Reb
The Germans used the tanks for transportation to the front sometimes dismounted before the shooting started.
The Germans had the edge with their armoured infantry in SPWs but never a whole lot.
Anybody whose read a few books may now beat me to death for over generalizing and lash me with sharp anecdote!
cheers
Reb
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sniper1shot
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What are you talking about......we still learn this today.Infantry would be advised to avoid armour on the battlefleid. Yes, infantry supports armour but not as close as depicted in popular movies
I had to hop on the back of a tank to get out of an area as I had advanced to far.....during a Live Fire Exercise. I was "stacked" up behind the tank and he walked us in....
If there are too many troops on the turret or the back it could mean they are in the rear areas and as Reb stated-would hop off before the shooting started.
If in an area and then ambushed, the tank comd would do what he had to to save the tank and traverse the turret.......sweeping off the infantry.
Armour...ANY ARMOUR is better than nothing in an open field (unless in a trench) and you would use the tank to fire you in to the target.
Only he is lost who gives himself up as lost.
If any of you have the book "In deadly combat" by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann, there is a photo showing a knocked out tank with dead soldiers around it.
The photo caption states: "...The Soviet practice of infantry riding on the chassis of tanks into battle could prove devastating if the armored vehicle was struck by a heavy-caliber Pak projectile."
I guess that only through experience would you know when to stay close to armor and when to keep away.
The photo caption states: "...The Soviet practice of infantry riding on the chassis of tanks into battle could prove devastating if the armored vehicle was struck by a heavy-caliber Pak projectile."
I guess that only through experience would you know when to stay close to armor and when to keep away.
Troops riding tanks into battle
Hi all,
Good discussion. Thanks. I have no personal experience and have to rely on what my father told me. He was German infantry during the war. Russian front. Dad was watching a war movie on the TV and said it was all nonsense. The particular scene showed German soldiers running along side tanks into battle. I asked him to explain. He said you soon learned from experience to stay away from armour in the field. My father described an action, early in his tour, when he and others were running along side a tank. Dad said suddenly something terrific came at him through the air. He didn't know what it was but it overwhelmed him. It went screaming past him and slammed into the tank. Dad said he hit the ground. He saw sparks flying from the point of impact and described the projectile to be burning or boring its way deeper into the metal. Then it exploded. My father said he never ran near a tank again.
A funny story. An officer cadet told me a humourous story about a tank and an infantryman when I was in the reserves. He said a friend of his was on a night exercise involving some tanks. His friend was walking down a road with tanks parked on the side. This infantryman had taken one of those luminous "snap" sticks, activated it, and placed it on the back of his rucksack. The light from the stick happened to be green. I suppose it was a safety measure. Unknown to him, the tanks were awaiting direction for movement. The signal to move forward was a green light.
The infantryman walked past a tank. As he walked, the luminous stick moved slowly up and down. In the night, the crew saw only a green light moving slowing up and down. They followed the green light down the road. The infantryman noticed the tank close behind him and stepped to one side on the road. The tank followed the green light. The infantryman went over to the other side of the road. The tank followed. The infantryman started to run down the road. The tank crew saw a green light waving them on at a greater pace. They increased their speed to match and followed the light. The infantryman ran off the road, into the ditch, and into a field. He now believed he was running for his life and ran as fast as he could. The tank crew saw a green light waving up and down at a furious pace and gave chase. The infantryman was now frantic and believed there was a tank bearing down on him intent on murder. I think the officer cadet said his friend was screaming at the top of his lungs but the faster he ran the faster the tank kept coming. As soon as he stopped the tank stopped and he finally realized what was going on.
Horrido!
Good discussion. Thanks. I have no personal experience and have to rely on what my father told me. He was German infantry during the war. Russian front. Dad was watching a war movie on the TV and said it was all nonsense. The particular scene showed German soldiers running along side tanks into battle. I asked him to explain. He said you soon learned from experience to stay away from armour in the field. My father described an action, early in his tour, when he and others were running along side a tank. Dad said suddenly something terrific came at him through the air. He didn't know what it was but it overwhelmed him. It went screaming past him and slammed into the tank. Dad said he hit the ground. He saw sparks flying from the point of impact and described the projectile to be burning or boring its way deeper into the metal. Then it exploded. My father said he never ran near a tank again.
A funny story. An officer cadet told me a humourous story about a tank and an infantryman when I was in the reserves. He said a friend of his was on a night exercise involving some tanks. His friend was walking down a road with tanks parked on the side. This infantryman had taken one of those luminous "snap" sticks, activated it, and placed it on the back of his rucksack. The light from the stick happened to be green. I suppose it was a safety measure. Unknown to him, the tanks were awaiting direction for movement. The signal to move forward was a green light.
The infantryman walked past a tank. As he walked, the luminous stick moved slowly up and down. In the night, the crew saw only a green light moving slowing up and down. They followed the green light down the road. The infantryman noticed the tank close behind him and stepped to one side on the road. The tank followed the green light. The infantryman went over to the other side of the road. The tank followed. The infantryman started to run down the road. The tank crew saw a green light waving them on at a greater pace. They increased their speed to match and followed the light. The infantryman ran off the road, into the ditch, and into a field. He now believed he was running for his life and ran as fast as he could. The tank crew saw a green light waving up and down at a furious pace and gave chase. The infantryman was now frantic and believed there was a tank bearing down on him intent on murder. I think the officer cadet said his friend was screaming at the top of his lungs but the faster he ran the faster the tank kept coming. As soon as he stopped the tank stopped and he finally realized what was going on.
Horrido!
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Tom Houlihan
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sniper1shot
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I burst out laughing....good one.
Seen it happen myself though not even close to that scale.
Guide at a road junction was talking to another person and what ever he was talking about started to point his arm down one of the roads.....needless to say a vehicle packet was screeming down the road, saw him "pointing" down the road and proceded that way. Half the packet was down the road until they stopped as he was screaming and running after the lead vehicle.
Too Funny.
Seen it happen myself though not even close to that scale.
Guide at a road junction was talking to another person and what ever he was talking about started to point his arm down one of the roads.....needless to say a vehicle packet was screeming down the road, saw him "pointing" down the road and proceded that way. Half the packet was down the road until they stopped as he was screaming and running after the lead vehicle.
Too Funny.
Only he is lost who gives himself up as lost.
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M48_Tanker
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Troops on Armor
As an M48 tanker in the Vietnam war, I can say we had troops ride on our tanks quite a lot. It was far easier for them to be on the tank as we pushed jungle down. When the firing started they quidkly dismounted and moved about 10 meters to the rear to get out of the back blast of the main gun. I have a picture I took of an ambush along highway 13 and it shows the infantry behind the turret as the coax machine gun was returning fire. I guess it really depends on the situation as to when infantry rides armor.
Vietnam War M48 Tanker
I have to agree, riding it into battle, or being too close to it in battle, would be a bad idea. However, all those pictures of American troops catching rides after D-Day? The point of those pics is that the troops are on tanks for movement to the front lines; furthermore, I would go so far as to say that if there is a known front line, that your squad could lounge on that tank until you started to hear gunfire and yelling, and then hop off and skulk around in the bushes.
Beats the hell out of walking everywhere.
Beats the hell out of walking everywhere.
Gold for the craftsman,
Silver for the maid.
Copper for the craftsman,
cunning at his trade
"Good!" said the Baron,
Sitting in his hall
"but Iron, Cold Iron,
is master of them all"
-Kipling
Silver for the maid.
Copper for the craftsman,
cunning at his trade
"Good!" said the Baron,
Sitting in his hall
"but Iron, Cold Iron,
is master of them all"
-Kipling
In a good attack all your combat power arrives on the enemy positions at (very nearly) the same time; direct and indirect fire support, armour and infantry. The job of the defender is to dislocate that plan, so, neutralise enemy supressive fire by digging, separate tanks and infantry in time and/or space by using defensive fire, etc. Then the defender is just facing one threat at a time, and can use all his combat power sequentially, instead of the effort being split and overwhelmed.
Riding tanks into battle works well if the enemy don't use their mortars or MG's to shoot the infantry off the tanks before they get to grips with the defensive positions. If the tanks arrive on their own, do them with your AT weapons/artillery; if the infantry arrive first, use your HE and MG fire. The Germans taught this in their "Männer gegen Panzer" films, available on Youtube.
The advent of the BMP/Warrior/Bradley modified this, but not in its essentials, as the defensive AT threat will still dictate whether the infantry go in mounted or dismounted (or in the case of the Russians, go in running in front of the BMP's, or running behind them
).
Riding tanks into battle works well if the enemy don't use their mortars or MG's to shoot the infantry off the tanks before they get to grips with the defensive positions. If the tanks arrive on their own, do them with your AT weapons/artillery; if the infantry arrive first, use your HE and MG fire. The Germans taught this in their "Männer gegen Panzer" films, available on Youtube.
The advent of the BMP/Warrior/Bradley modified this, but not in its essentials, as the defensive AT threat will still dictate whether the infantry go in mounted or dismounted (or in the case of the Russians, go in running in front of the BMP's, or running behind them
).All armies can be divided into two parts:
1. Infantry;
2. Support arms.
1. Infantry;
2. Support arms.