I have just ordered the book !
Hmm the emoticon does not seem to want to work
(but I am "Very Happy")
:D
Convoy KMF 5 - Aerial Torpedoing of the Cameronia
-
Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
-
Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
-
Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
I/KG26 & III/KG26
Gentlemen,
Apparently the KTB that I require is now in the post.
However, if I can ask you all for one further piece of information in the meantime. I have bought a copy of Harold Thiele's book 'Luftwaffe Aerial Torpedo Aircraft and Operations' and was thrilled to see that it contains absolutely no references for the information that it contains - marvellous.
What I am after is the source material for Thiele's comments about 21-22 December 1942. He says that 14 aircraft were sent out on 21st and that III/KG26 sent out three aircraft one of which was a torpedo bomber on 22nd but where does Thiele get this information from ?
Can anyone quote me the source references and what they actually say ?
Thanks
Andre
Apparently the KTB that I require is now in the post.
However, if I can ask you all for one further piece of information in the meantime. I have bought a copy of Harold Thiele's book 'Luftwaffe Aerial Torpedo Aircraft and Operations' and was thrilled to see that it contains absolutely no references for the information that it contains - marvellous.
What I am after is the source material for Thiele's comments about 21-22 December 1942. He says that 14 aircraft were sent out on 21st and that III/KG26 sent out three aircraft one of which was a torpedo bomber on 22nd but where does Thiele get this information from ?
Can anyone quote me the source references and what they actually say ?
Thanks
Andre
Andre Chissel
-
Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
Please let me know, if you need some help.Convoy KMF 5 - Cameronia
the crews asserted to have hit with a bomb a motor-ship of 6.000 tons, on which smoke column was developed one. The other four Ju. 88, not having sighted the convoy, went to bomb the Algerian port of Djidjelli. Meantime, to hours 05,00, was taken off from the Sardinia a Ju.88 torpedo bomber of III. /KG.26, that it succeeded to sight the enemy and to hit with a fleeting torpedo the steamboat British Cameronia, of 16.297 tons, anch' it used after transport troops, damaging it seriously in lat. 37°03' N, long. 05°24' and. were 22 dead men, comprised 17 soldiers, on a total of 4.181 persons transported from the ship. According to the operating bulletin n. 390 of the O.B.S the crew of the German aircraft, that he attacked to the 06,35, asserted to have hit with two torpedoes a steamboat fleeting of 12-15.000 tons to the northeast of Bougie, in the lat. 35°57' N, long. 05°03' and, and to have noticed on that ship an outbreak, continuation from strong development of smoke and probable fire. The commander of the Cameronia confirmed in its relationship that its ship had been hit to the 06,34 from the torpedo launch from one Ju. 88, while according to torpedo launch from the German airplane, also having caught up the steamboat on the flank, not exploded.
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Convoy KMF 5 - Cameronia
I make excuses myself for the exited piece cut of first part
In order to trace convoy KMF.5, than after the sinking of the Strathallan ocean-going liner it continued navigation towards Bona, in the night on the 22 II the Fliegerkorps made to take off from the Sardinia two nocturnal reconnaissance aircrafts equips you of apparatus of Rare survey (the German Radar), in order to find the enemy formation and to hold of the contact. Subsequently, between the 19,20 and the 20,00, to were made to leave fourteen torpedoing bombers of 26° the Flock, of which five He. 111 of I./KG.26 and the nine Ju. 88 of the III. /KG.26. Of they, three He. 111 and five Ju. 88 succeeded to characterize the convoy to east of Algeri, and to carry themselves to the attack near Dellys, in lat. 36°57' N, long. 04°03' and, without but achieving happened. And this although the crews of the III. /KG.30, with the customary optimism, had declared to have hit one motor-ship from 10,000 tons and two steamboats, respective of 8,000 and 5,000 tons. For against, two He. 111 of 3^ the Squadron of the /KG.26, was pulled down from the air defense of the ships and from the aircrafts from Spitfire hunting of 600° the Squadron of the R.A.F. These last ones credited the destruction of to Heinkel with the petty officers first class pilot Owen and McAllister. Between the crews of the two lost German aircrafts (1H+BL and 1H+NL), that they had for heads crews the Lt. Sebastian Suchanek and the Uffz. Hermann Meinel, four to were died (to entire crew of Suchanek), and other four to were collected from the British ships and captive facts. Continuing navigation towards Levant, the KMF.5 still came held under control from the German reconnaissances aircraft and then, to the 04,35, they took off from the Sardinia six Ju.88 bombers, two of which they attacked the convoy in the first hours of the mattino of 22 December, in Translate to Web page ©2006 Google
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In order to trace convoy KMF.5, than after the sinking of the Strathallan ocean-going liner it continued navigation towards Bona, in the night on the 22 II the Fliegerkorps made to take off from the Sardinia two nocturnal reconnaissance aircrafts equips you of apparatus of Rare survey (the German Radar), in order to find the enemy formation and to hold of the contact. Subsequently, between the 19,20 and the 20,00, to were made to leave fourteen torpedoing bombers of 26° the Flock, of which five He. 111 of I./KG.26 and the nine Ju. 88 of the III. /KG.26. Of they, three He. 111 and five Ju. 88 succeeded to characterize the convoy to east of Algeri, and to carry themselves to the attack near Dellys, in lat. 36°57' N, long. 04°03' and, without but achieving happened. And this although the crews of the III. /KG.30, with the customary optimism, had declared to have hit one motor-ship from 10,000 tons and two steamboats, respective of 8,000 and 5,000 tons. For against, two He. 111 of 3^ the Squadron of the /KG.26, was pulled down from the air defense of the ships and from the aircrafts from Spitfire hunting of 600° the Squadron of the R.A.F. These last ones credited the destruction of to Heinkel with the petty officers first class pilot Owen and McAllister. Between the crews of the two lost German aircrafts (1H+BL and 1H+NL), that they had for heads crews the Lt. Sebastian Suchanek and the Uffz. Hermann Meinel, four to were died (to entire crew of Suchanek), and other four to were collected from the British ships and captive facts. Continuing navigation towards Levant, the KMF.5 still came held under control from the German reconnaissances aircraft and then, to the 04,35, they took off from the Sardinia six Ju.88 bombers, two of which they attacked the convoy in the first hours of the mattino of 22 December, in Translate to Web page ©2006 Google
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Continuation navigation convoy MKF 5 until Bona.
According to many sources, above all in the situated ones of Internet, the torpoeing of the Cameronia has been credited to the Germanic submarine U-565 (lieutenant Wilhelm Franken), but that is not possible since from the information passages the evening of the 21 from the Commando of Germanic Navy in Italy from the Operations command of the General Staff of the Italian Navy (Supermarine), referred that the U-boote in issue gia had attacked a convoy (the KMF.5), to north of the Gulf of Bejaia. It achieves some that the attack of the U-565 could not to have happened the 22, given in which the Camaronia was torpedoed. The odissea of convoy KMF.5 concluded 24 December to Bona without to endure other attacks. And this although in the night between the 23 and 24 six Ju bombers. 88 had been send you to its search, without to succeed to discover the convoy for the maltempo. Only one of the Ju. 88 sighted and attacked one motor-ship of 5.000 tons, without to hit it, others two Ju. 88 re-entered the bombs to edge, and the others three, choosing an other objective, uncoupled in the port of Bona.
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©2006 Google
According to many sources, above all in the situated ones of Internet, the torpoeing of the Cameronia has been credited to the Germanic submarine U-565 (lieutenant Wilhelm Franken), but that is not possible since from the information passages the evening of the 21 from the Commando of Germanic Navy in Italy from the Operations command of the General Staff of the Italian Navy (Supermarine), referred that the U-boote in issue gia had attacked a convoy (the KMF.5), to north of the Gulf of Bejaia. It achieves some that the attack of the U-565 could not to have happened the 22, given in which the Camaronia was torpedoed. The odissea of convoy KMF.5 concluded 24 December to Bona without to endure other attacks. And this although in the night between the 23 and 24 six Ju bombers. 88 had been send you to its search, without to succeed to discover the convoy for the maltempo. Only one of the Ju. 88 sighted and attacked one motor-ship of 5.000 tons, without to hit it, others two Ju. 88 re-entered the bombs to edge, and the others three, choosing an other objective, uncoupled in the port of Bona.
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©2006 Google
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Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
KG26
Dear Francesco,
Please contact me ! Please provide me with the website as well !
Dear all,
I have now got a translation of the KTB and torpedo report.
I have also been provided with someone else's diary who was onboard the Cameronia at the time and have been adding that to the article. I also want to add some aspects of your comments to the article as well.
One thing that does stirke me and this is a message to everyone - according to Francesco I/KG26 and III/KG26 were based in Sardinia - according to the internet in Dec 1942 both were based in Grosetto Who is right ? Certainly given the times that the aircraft took off they must have been in Sardinia but where are the reference sources for this information ?
What about He 111s in the subsequent follow up attacks ? KMF 5 finished on 22nd when the Circassia landed at Bone unless you consider the troops from the Cameronia reboarding one of the moonlight squadron and being taken to Bone later.
BUT anybody - Where were these staffels based ? Grosetto or Sardinia ?
Thanks
AAndre
Please contact me ! Please provide me with the website as well !
Dear all,
I have now got a translation of the KTB and torpedo report.
I have also been provided with someone else's diary who was onboard the Cameronia at the time and have been adding that to the article. I also want to add some aspects of your comments to the article as well.
One thing that does stirke me and this is a message to everyone - according to Francesco I/KG26 and III/KG26 were based in Sardinia - according to the internet in Dec 1942 both were based in Grosetto Who is right ? Certainly given the times that the aircraft took off they must have been in Sardinia but where are the reference sources for this information ?
What about He 111s in the subsequent follow up attacks ? KMF 5 finished on 22nd when the Circassia landed at Bone unless you consider the troops from the Cameronia reboarding one of the moonlight squadron and being taken to Bone later.
BUT anybody - Where were these staffels based ? Grosetto or Sardinia ?
Thanks
AAndre
Andre Chissel
Convoy MKF 5- Cameronia
Hello Andre,
I’m happy that the news I sent were useful to you, and in answering to your demands I make a short summary on the activity of the torpedo bombers of the KG.26 in the Mediterranean. Initially, for all 1941, a single squadron, the 6/KG.26 operated from Gerbini, in Sicily, that it obtained but insufficient turns out to you with its He.111 aircrafts (every armed with two torpedo): sinking of the French steamboat “Louis Charles Schiaffino (25/2) and, in a attack of 3 August to Suez leaving from Crete, where the X Fliegerkorps had been moved from the Sicily, sinking of the Belgian motor-ship “Escaut” and damaging of the fleet oil tanker British “Desmoulea” and Belgian “Alexandre Andre”. Subsequently, to the end of 1941, the 6/KG.26 it was moved in Black Sea in order to operate against the Soviet traffic, but then it re-entered in Sicily in August 1942 in order to participate, together to the He.111 of the School Torpedo bombers of Grosseto, to the attacks against the convoy of the Operation “Pedestal”, directed to Malta. Sinking in the occasion, day 12, the British steamboats “Deucalion” (the immobilized from the bombs of the Ju.88 of the KG.54 and KG.77) and “Clans Ferguson” (the property left at death one was torpedoed from the Italian submarine “Bronzo”) and having damaged the “Brisbane Star”.
Operating in September and October from Crete, in order to push itself irregularly in Red Sea, to south of Suez, the 6/KG.26 it damaged the Swedish steamboat “Karlshamn” and sank the British oil tanker “Scalaria”. Therefore the Squadron returned in Sicily to the October end in order to contrast the British naval movements to east of Gibilterra, than then they carried to the disembarkation to Oran, Alger and Bougie. In the course of the operations, the 7th and 8th November, the He. 111 of the 6/KG.26 damaged the American transports troop “Thomas Stone” and “Leedstown”, and 18 day the cruiser “Arethusa” to N.E. of Bengasi The activity of the 6/KG.26 then went to integrate itself with that one of the He.111 torpedo bombers of the I./KG.26 and the Ju.88 of the III./KG.26, transferred of urgency from Norway in Italy. It then followed the arrival from Russia of Staffel 4. and 5. of II./KG.26, and that allowed to have in the Mediterranean the three Groups operated you of the KG.26. The main base of this unit was Grosseto, airport, since January 1942, of the School German Torpedo bombers of 2^ Luftflotte (KSG.2 – in February 1943 was redesignated KG.102), but the Groups used for their offensive missions the airports of the Sicily and the Sardinia (in particular Villacidro) and, irregularly, also of Greece.
In may of 1943 the KG.26 was transferred in southern France, where it continued to operate in the Mediterranean until first of June 1944 when, together to the Ju.88 of the I. and III./KG.77, transformed in torpedo bombers, was transferred from operation of the Normandie, in order to contrast the disembarkation of Allies. According to the data brought back in the test “I successi degli aerosiluranti italiani e tedeschi in Mediterraneo nella 2^ guerra mondiale” (“The successes of the Italian and German torpedo bombers in the Mediterranean in 2^ the world war”), entire Bollettino d’Archivio dell’Ufficio Storico della Marina Militare, (Bulletin of the Archives of the Historical Office of Military Navy, Rome, March 2002), the German torpedo bombers sank in the Mediterranean and Red Sea 5 military ships for 13,875 t and 27 mercantile ships for 183,758 t, and damaged 6 military ships for 29,382 t and 12 mercantile ships for 112,092 t.
Step hour to supply the data to you that to the asked one on the break-up for the I. and III. /KG.26 in the period of the torpedoing of the “Cameronia”. It is necessary to say that the Commander of the KG.26 (colonel Karl Stockmann, already Commander of the School torpedo bombers) was to Grosseto. In this great airport of the Tuscany, situated in north of Rome, there were also the He.111 aircrafts of the II./KG.26; but this unit was being transformed in entire unit of torpedo bomber, until now limited to the 6/KG.26. However, every time there was an emergency, the aircrafts available of the three operating groups were ordered to move on the airports that were more close the enemy. For this reason, they often transferred in Sardinia, in Sicily, or in Aegean, a short operational cycle doing out above all nocturnal attacks, and they were ready to the order of re-enter after accomplished to Grosseto, for be replaced in the operatives airports from other aircrafts of the KG.26. The 20th and 21th December the three Groups was under the command of: the I./KG.26 under the command of the famous Major Werner Klumper, than then in March he replaced the Col. Stokmann in the command of the KG.26; the II. /KG.26 under the command of Major Horst. Beyling; the III../KG.26 under the command of the Capt. Klaus Nocken. Otherwise the IV. /KG.26, that he was assigned to tasks of training the Groups of the flock was in Germany, to Lübeck-Blankensee.
The same operating problems regarded the units of bombers of Ju.88. Only in Elmas (Sardinia) the 2/KG.60 was stable in here. The aircrafts of flocks KG.30, KG.54, KG.76 and KG.77 were basically in Sicily (to Catania, Comiso, Gerbini), with some groups separated in other fields: the II. and III./KG.76 in Greece and to Crete; I./KG.54 and the III. /KG.77 to Piacenza. At last the I. and II./KG.6 were to Foggia, but in December they were transferred in France. All these units in their offensive operations, carried out in the zone between Bougie and Capo Tenes (the west of Alger) often they used the airports for a short time of operations in Sardinia, after those were ordered to re-enter in their bases, for not become an objective for the strategic bombers of Ally. It is necessary to consider that the defence of the Sardinia was less efficient than those in Sicily or than the other bases of Italy.
Moreover it happened often that the airplane, above all the Ju.87 that had minor autonomy, operated to bobbin, as it was happened during the operation “Pedestal”. That airplane were leave the Sicily to attack a naval objective, in order then to land in Sardinia, where they could not be withheld over a long time span being the airports of the island saturates of Italian airplane. Therefore, the German airplane were refuelling and returned in Sicily, in order then to get ready to itself to attack of new.
Sincerely yours to Andre and all you,
Francesco
I’m happy that the news I sent were useful to you, and in answering to your demands I make a short summary on the activity of the torpedo bombers of the KG.26 in the Mediterranean. Initially, for all 1941, a single squadron, the 6/KG.26 operated from Gerbini, in Sicily, that it obtained but insufficient turns out to you with its He.111 aircrafts (every armed with two torpedo): sinking of the French steamboat “Louis Charles Schiaffino (25/2) and, in a attack of 3 August to Suez leaving from Crete, where the X Fliegerkorps had been moved from the Sicily, sinking of the Belgian motor-ship “Escaut” and damaging of the fleet oil tanker British “Desmoulea” and Belgian “Alexandre Andre”. Subsequently, to the end of 1941, the 6/KG.26 it was moved in Black Sea in order to operate against the Soviet traffic, but then it re-entered in Sicily in August 1942 in order to participate, together to the He.111 of the School Torpedo bombers of Grosseto, to the attacks against the convoy of the Operation “Pedestal”, directed to Malta. Sinking in the occasion, day 12, the British steamboats “Deucalion” (the immobilized from the bombs of the Ju.88 of the KG.54 and KG.77) and “Clans Ferguson” (the property left at death one was torpedoed from the Italian submarine “Bronzo”) and having damaged the “Brisbane Star”.
Operating in September and October from Crete, in order to push itself irregularly in Red Sea, to south of Suez, the 6/KG.26 it damaged the Swedish steamboat “Karlshamn” and sank the British oil tanker “Scalaria”. Therefore the Squadron returned in Sicily to the October end in order to contrast the British naval movements to east of Gibilterra, than then they carried to the disembarkation to Oran, Alger and Bougie. In the course of the operations, the 7th and 8th November, the He. 111 of the 6/KG.26 damaged the American transports troop “Thomas Stone” and “Leedstown”, and 18 day the cruiser “Arethusa” to N.E. of Bengasi The activity of the 6/KG.26 then went to integrate itself with that one of the He.111 torpedo bombers of the I./KG.26 and the Ju.88 of the III./KG.26, transferred of urgency from Norway in Italy. It then followed the arrival from Russia of Staffel 4. and 5. of II./KG.26, and that allowed to have in the Mediterranean the three Groups operated you of the KG.26. The main base of this unit was Grosseto, airport, since January 1942, of the School German Torpedo bombers of 2^ Luftflotte (KSG.2 – in February 1943 was redesignated KG.102), but the Groups used for their offensive missions the airports of the Sicily and the Sardinia (in particular Villacidro) and, irregularly, also of Greece.
In may of 1943 the KG.26 was transferred in southern France, where it continued to operate in the Mediterranean until first of June 1944 when, together to the Ju.88 of the I. and III./KG.77, transformed in torpedo bombers, was transferred from operation of the Normandie, in order to contrast the disembarkation of Allies. According to the data brought back in the test “I successi degli aerosiluranti italiani e tedeschi in Mediterraneo nella 2^ guerra mondiale” (“The successes of the Italian and German torpedo bombers in the Mediterranean in 2^ the world war”), entire Bollettino d’Archivio dell’Ufficio Storico della Marina Militare, (Bulletin of the Archives of the Historical Office of Military Navy, Rome, March 2002), the German torpedo bombers sank in the Mediterranean and Red Sea 5 military ships for 13,875 t and 27 mercantile ships for 183,758 t, and damaged 6 military ships for 29,382 t and 12 mercantile ships for 112,092 t.
Step hour to supply the data to you that to the asked one on the break-up for the I. and III. /KG.26 in the period of the torpedoing of the “Cameronia”. It is necessary to say that the Commander of the KG.26 (colonel Karl Stockmann, already Commander of the School torpedo bombers) was to Grosseto. In this great airport of the Tuscany, situated in north of Rome, there were also the He.111 aircrafts of the II./KG.26; but this unit was being transformed in entire unit of torpedo bomber, until now limited to the 6/KG.26. However, every time there was an emergency, the aircrafts available of the three operating groups were ordered to move on the airports that were more close the enemy. For this reason, they often transferred in Sardinia, in Sicily, or in Aegean, a short operational cycle doing out above all nocturnal attacks, and they were ready to the order of re-enter after accomplished to Grosseto, for be replaced in the operatives airports from other aircrafts of the KG.26. The 20th and 21th December the three Groups was under the command of: the I./KG.26 under the command of the famous Major Werner Klumper, than then in March he replaced the Col. Stokmann in the command of the KG.26; the II. /KG.26 under the command of Major Horst. Beyling; the III../KG.26 under the command of the Capt. Klaus Nocken. Otherwise the IV. /KG.26, that he was assigned to tasks of training the Groups of the flock was in Germany, to Lübeck-Blankensee.
The same operating problems regarded the units of bombers of Ju.88. Only in Elmas (Sardinia) the 2/KG.60 was stable in here. The aircrafts of flocks KG.30, KG.54, KG.76 and KG.77 were basically in Sicily (to Catania, Comiso, Gerbini), with some groups separated in other fields: the II. and III./KG.76 in Greece and to Crete; I./KG.54 and the III. /KG.77 to Piacenza. At last the I. and II./KG.6 were to Foggia, but in December they were transferred in France. All these units in their offensive operations, carried out in the zone between Bougie and Capo Tenes (the west of Alger) often they used the airports for a short time of operations in Sardinia, after those were ordered to re-enter in their bases, for not become an objective for the strategic bombers of Ally. It is necessary to consider that the defence of the Sardinia was less efficient than those in Sicily or than the other bases of Italy.
Moreover it happened often that the airplane, above all the Ju.87 that had minor autonomy, operated to bobbin, as it was happened during the operation “Pedestal”. That airplane were leave the Sicily to attack a naval objective, in order then to land in Sardinia, where they could not be withheld over a long time span being the airports of the island saturates of Italian airplane. Therefore, the German airplane were refuelling and returned in Sicily, in order then to get ready to itself to attack of new.
Sincerely yours to Andre and all you,
Francesco
-
Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
KG26
Dear Francesco,
Many many thanks for this. I have left you one other post on the uboat website.
Sincerely
Andre Chissel
Many many thanks for this. I have left you one other post on the uboat website.
Sincerely
Andre Chissel
Andre Chissel
-
Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
Re: Convoy KMF 5 - Aerial Torpedoing of the Cameronia
Dear Francesco,
Would it be possible for you to e mail me a scanned copy of each of the OBS reports relating to KMF-5 that you have mentioned in your e-mails on this subject as I would like to include them in a book I am writing about this convoy.
Also, do you have any details of the Italian submarines in the area between 20-22 December 1942 ?
Best wishes
Andre
Would it be possible for you to e mail me a scanned copy of each of the OBS reports relating to KMF-5 that you have mentioned in your e-mails on this subject as I would like to include them in a book I am writing about this convoy.
Also, do you have any details of the Italian submarines in the area between 20-22 December 1942 ?
Best wishes
Andre
Andre Chissel
Re: Convoy KMF 5 - Aerial Torpedoing of the Cameronia
This may interest you
http://photos.mercantilemarine.org/main ... itemId=675
Neither ship was a twin stacker.
http://photos.mercantilemarine.org/main ... itemId=675
Neither ship was a twin stacker.
-
Andre Chissel
- Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 pm
- Location: Australia
Re: Convoy KMF 5 - Aerial Torpedoing of the Cameronia
Dear all,
Well, I am just signing in to say that I have finished my book and after some enthusiasm from a publisher, we hit major issues with copyright and so it looks like it will never be published.
Oh well !
Still I had a great deal of fun researching and writing it.
Thanks for all your help
Andre
Well, I am just signing in to say that I have finished my book and after some enthusiasm from a publisher, we hit major issues with copyright and so it looks like it will never be published.
Oh well !
Still I had a great deal of fun researching and writing it.
Thanks for all your help
Andre
Andre Chissel