Convoy KMF 5 - Aerial Torpedoing of the Cameronia

[Andre Chissel]

Gentlemen

Many thanks as ever (two torpedo hits ! oh come on why does no-one on the Cameronia remember two torpedos hitting the ship !)

The more I look into this topic the more intriguing it becomes.

I look forward to receiving any further information that anyone has on this subject.

Question would a KG26 aircraft drop one or both of its torpedos in an attack run or would it make two passes and drop one torpedo per pass ? It seems that if both were dropped at the same time one might have missed and the other struck the ship but because they were both dropped at the same time the crew or the Ju 88 may have believed that one hit was in fact two ? Is this possible/likely ??

This simple piece of research is turning into a nightmare !

[cpa95]

Hi,

qouted from Clay Blair, Hitlers U-Boat-War, The Hunted 1942-1945 (Vol II), p. 170-171:

In December 1942 U 565 sunk the destroyer Partridge and DAMAGED the transporter Cameronia (16.297 ts). The damaged Cameronia drove with the convoy KMF 5 and later was sunk by airplanes of the Luftwaffe.

Greetings
Thomas


EDIT:
War diary of Seekriegsleitung, Vol. XL, Dec. 1942, p. 459-461:
U 565 reported a hit on a 2-"chimney"-ship within a conway on an eastern route, area CH-7993.
At 06.35 on 22.12.1942 airplanes with aerial toprpedos attacked the convoy northeast of Bougie. 2 hits on a passenger ship with 12.000 BRT were reported. After these hits, the ship burned.

[Andre Chissel]

Trust me,

This is inacurate !

The Cameronia survived the war quite nicely.

Just goes to show that you should always seek confirmation from at least one other source especially now with the subject matter published on the internet.

Really appreciate the continued interest in this topic though.

For those that are interested my article is almost ready, I am just waiting to receive details of the log book from U565 - the corresponding torpedo records are apparently "missing".

Regards

Andre

[cpa95]

Hi Andre,

please take into consideration, that the source War Diary of SKL didnt say, that the Cameronia was sunk by submarine or aerial torpedo!

Here is the source, that may be have found a legend:


"Report of F.d.U. (= Führer der Unterseeboote), Italy, for the 10th journey of U-565
...
4. remarkably is
a) the sighting of allied BB, CV, CA marching in row, without any destroyers on both sides, but with a large air shield above in close distance.
b) the sighting of two rescue boats of a passenger ship, which was torpedoed by U-562 (!) on 21.12.1942 (!) in the same area.
...
6. accepted is the sinking of one destroyer and the torpedoing (not the sinking!) of a transport ship of 12.000 BRT."

quoted from Busch/Röll, Der U-Boot-Krieg, Die Ritterkreuzträger (Wilhelm Franken)

Greetings
Thomas

[Andre Chissel]

Gentlemen,

I shall resist the temptation to scream.

Lloyds War losses/Damaged ships for 20-23 December mentions the Cameronia and the Strathallan ONLY

The Cameronia received one torpedo hit only - The report from the Captain of the Cameronia (that I finally received again two days ago) talks about a Ju 88 dropping the torpedo at 06.34 BST which correlates with the time of 06.35 mentioned from Zweiter Halban II/4 page 1176-1177 however, the mention of "two torpedo hits" is possibly wishful thinking by the Ju 88 (Given the amount of AAA that was being flung in its general direction at the time I do not think that it hung around so I can forgive the over jealous crew claiming two hits - it may have dropped two torpedoes and one failed to explode I suppose - hmmm I wonder (Argentine airforce during the Falklands dropped lots of bombs on the RN that failed to explode), so its possible.

However, the mystery of course deepens because the Cameronia was a "One stack" vessel from all of the pictures on the internet (except for the two stack one that was the Cameronia that was torpedoed (and which sank) in the first world war).

Nevertheless, from the war diary of Seekriegsleitung Vol XL Dec 1942 p 458-461 U565 reported a hit on a "two stack". However, the incident report from the Captain of the Cameronia does mention that the Ju 88 straffed the ship and

"The Bridge was machine gunned, and afterwards it was found that the funnels and upper structure were perforated"

Let us assume that the word "funnels" is a typo and that the Captain of U565 could not see properly - that way we begin to have a one funneled ship as per the pictures available over the internet.

I will look into the Cameronia a bit further to see whether by some fluke a dummy funnel was for whatever reason put up (but why do this ?) but at this stage I have one question

What does BB CV & CA mean ?

Any other explanations as to two torpedoes hitting when there was only one and two funnels existing when there was only one would be wonderfully accepted !

We are back down to "Man with one watch knows what the tine is, man with two watches is never quite sure" !

Many thanks keep the info coming !

Andre

[cpa95]

What does BB CV & CA mean ?

Hi,

a) it means battleship, carrier, heavy cruiser (from the report of F.d.U. Italy). b) Sorry, "chimney" was the wrong word, "funnel" is correct.

Whats about the two small rescue boats, which had been sawn by U-565 on 27.12.1942?

Greetings
Thomas

[Andre Chissel]

No idea - tap in "1300 dyas of Strathallan" onto Google and you will get a full picture of the Strathallan and what went on - the rescue boats could be the Destroyers Lafroey & Verity - possibly.

Interestingly, although two vessels for the intial outward leg of KMF-5 (UK to Gibraltar) were designated as Rescue Boats, surprisingly no vessels were designated as such for the Gibaraltar to Final destination leg and this was when the convoy was positively attacked twice !

Have sent off for the KTBs of both U565 & U562 for all of December 1942 should be interesting (the torpedo reports for U565 for December are "missing").

Regards to you all !

Andre

[Andre Chissel]

Gentlemen,

I have been off with the flu for the last few days - nasty business being confined at home with the only entertainment being New Zealand daytime TV. I was so depressed by it all I went back to work early because I was just not sick enough to put up with the TV anymore and reading a book was nausiating. Maybe the poor quality programming explains why New Zealand has the lowest unemployment rate of the western world. However, I digress.

I am still waiting for the KTB for U-565. Once I have that many mysteries will be solved.

However, I have had a read through the draft article that I have prepared (25 pages thus far) and a few questions have arisen.

Lorenz, on 23 August, you kindly named the unit and the crew of two downed He III H-6s that took part in the attack against the Cameronia - silly question but looking elsewhere, it seems that the crew compliment for a normal He III is five not four. Were they four on H-6s for a particular reason ?

Allesandro, on 25 August, you provided me with information that 14 aircraft took off from KG 26 and when I asked for a reference, you mentioned the OKW diaries. However, from Lorenz on 27 August, it is clear that "OKW" as a full reference is not enough. Please could you provide me with the "Halbband" and page number for your information?

Thomas, on 3 September you mentioned the FDU and the tenth sailing of U-565. According to ubootwaffe.net it was in fact the 12th sailing – please could you confirm this from the FDU report. (Oh and by the way when I said “Trust me this is inaccurate” on 2 September, I was referring to the bit in your response dated 30 August where it said the Cameronia was sunk “by airplanes of the Luftwaffe”). I was not questioning anything else !

Thomas, please could I also get a year and the name of the publisher for the Clay Blair book you mentioned on 30 August ?

Lastly, (sorry, its you again Thomas) again in your correspondence of 3 September, you say at the end:

“quoted from Busch/Roll, der U-boot-Krieig, Die Ritterkreuztrager (Wilhelm Franken)” Is this a book or report that Wilhelm Franken wrote ? and if so could I again please have the year and publisher ?

Sorry to be a pain about all of this but we are almost there ! Honest !

Now for a general question:

During WW2, was it easy trying to locate a moving convoy at sea, at night, with no visible landmarks and during a blackout in December 1942 ? We think of all of the GPS stuff we have today but back then, it must have been difficult or was it simple ?

My only concern with all of this is the report in the war diary from Thomas on 30 August where it says U-565 reported a hit on a two chimney ship. The Cameronia was a one chimney ship, however, hopefully the KTB will sort this out - I wonder if this is a case of someone putting two and two together and getting five ?

In other words an individual mistakingly assuming that the two chimney ship that was hit was indeed the Cameronia, and who then commited this error as "fact" into an official record/report and everyone else since then assuming the record/report to be accurate quoting it ever since ?

Ah well !

Best wishes for now

Andre

[cpa95]

Thomas, on 3 September you mentioned the FDU and the tenth sailing of U-565. According to ubootwaffe.net it was in fact the 12th sailing – please could you confirm this from the FDU report. (Oh and by the way when I said “Trust me this is inaccurate” on 2 September, I was referring to the bit in your response dated 30 August where it said the Cameronia was sunk “by airplanes of the Luftwaffe”). I was not questioning anything else !
Thomas, please could I also get a year and the name of the publisher for the Clay Blair book you mentioned on 30 August ?
Lastly, (sorry, its you again Thomas) again in your correspondence of 3 September, you say at the end:
“quoted from Busch/Roll, der U-boot-Krieig, Die Ritterkreuztrager (Wilhelm Franken)” Is this a book or report that Wilhelm Franken wrote ? and if so could I again please have the year and publisher ?

Hi Andre,

no bit, no problem. (my statement on 30.8. was directly quoting Blair. sorry for the bit, its caused by my bad english )

f.ex: Blair, Clay, Der U-Boot Krieg / 1942 - 1945, Die Gejagten (Volume II), Bechtermünz Verlagsgruppe Weltbild, Augsburg, 2004
ISBN 3828905129
The original book is in english (try http://www.zvab.com ), this is the german edition.

Correction: It was the 10th sailing of Kapitänleutnant Wilhelm Franken, commander of U-565, and the 12th sailing of U-565

Rainer Busch/ Hans-Joachim Röll: Der U-Boot-Krieg 1939-1945, Die Ritterkreuzträger der U-Boot-Waffe von September 1939 bis Mai 1945, published by Verlag E.S. Mittler&Sohn, Hamburg-Berlin-Bonn, ISBN: 3813205150, page 357-363: Kapitänleutnant Wilhelm Franken

Greetings
Thomas

EDIT:
the hit on the 2-funnel-ship by U-565 was reported on 22.12.1942 quoted from the war diary of Seekriegsleitung from the same day. The diary was usually written 1-2 days after the related day, so it must be a radio report from U-565, not a final report after arriving in a harbour.
May be, U-565 made an error on this day,
may be, the report in the War diary has a mistake,
may be, the radio report was unclear.

[Lorenz]

Andre -

Lorenz, on 23 August, you kindly named the unit and the crew of two downed He 111 H-6s that took part in the attack against the Cameronia - silly question but looking elsewhere, it seems that the crew compliment for a normal He 111 is five not four. Were they four on H-6s for a particular reason ?

Answer: The fifth man, the Bordschütze (gunner), was almost always omitted from the crew on night missions. The attack on Cameronia was flown in the dark, except perhaps for the last hour of the return flight.

During WW2, was it easy trying to locate a moving convoy at sea, at night, with no visible landmarks and during a blackout in December 1942 ? We think of all of the GPS stuff we have today but back then, it must have been difficult or was it simple ?

Answer: difficult? Yes, but the Luftwaffe used two methods of doing so: (1) shadowing the convoy with reconnaissance aircraft (Fühlunghalter) that would continually drop flares and radio the convoy’s position and every change of direction, and (2) locating and closing on the convoy using FuG Rostock and/or FuG Hohentwiel maritime search radar mounted in one or more of the He 111s.

You also asked about the torpedo attack tactics used by He 111 crews:

The Anti-Shipping Forces 183
The Torpedo Bomber Force
A further deficiency in the armoury of the Luftwaffe at the beginning of the war was the lack of an effective aerial torpedo or a modern aircraft type able to carry it. The torpedo in service was the ineffective LTF 5 and the principal launching aircraft was the obsolescent Heinkel He 59, a twin-engined, float- equipped biplane. Early in the war the more effective Heinkel He 115 floatplane started to replace the He 59 in front-line units, but still the force lacked an effective torpedo. Only in the spring of 1942 did the Luftwaffe start to field a fully effective torpedo attack force. Then Kampfgeschwader 26 became operational with the H-6 version of the Heinkel He 111 modified to carry the F5B, a torpedo developed from an Italian Whitehead design. The weapon weighed 1,686lb (764kg), of which 4401b (200kg) comprised the warhead. By far the most successful torpedo attack by the Luftwaffe took place on 13 September 1942, when some forty He 111 s attacked convoy PQ.18 off the north coast of Norway. The convoy was shadowed by Blohm und Voss Bv 138 flying boats, and at a previously briefed time one of these began to radiate homing signals to guide in the Heinkels. To maintain the element of surprise for as long as possible, the attackers ran it at 150 feet, flying at their most economical cruising speed of 165 mph. The Heinkels flew in loose vics of between six and ten aircraft, with some two miles between succeeding vics. As they prepared to commence their attack runs, the torpedo bombers opened out into line abreast formation with about 300 yards between aircraft. Each crew selected a ship to attack and increased speed to 170 mph. . Released at that speed and altitude, the F5B would hit the water at its optimum entry angle of 12 degrees. If the torpedo were released from a greater altitude or a lower speed, it was liable to 'nose-dive' into the water and it might go too deep to recover; released from a lower altitude or at a much greater speed, it was liable to 'belly flop' and might suffer damage to its internal mechanism. Each He 111 carried two torpedoes, which were usually released in succession and aimed at the same ship. The optimum release range for the F5B was 1,000 yards from the target ship. The torpedo covered about 250 yards during its air flight of 3 seconds, and running at 33 knots it took about 14 seconds to cover the remainder of the distance. The weapon's minimum effective range, allowing it time to complete its air flight, arm itself and settle in its run, was about 650 yards By the time it had released its second torpedo, the aircraft was usually within about half a mile from the target ship and by then it was too late to turn away. The most common escape manoeuvre was therefore to accelerate going straight ahead, running past the convoy and keeping as low as possible.

[Source: Price, Dr. Alfred. The Luftwaffe Data Book (London: Greenhill Books, 1997), p.183; Smith, J.R. and Antony L. Kay. German Aircraft of the Second World War, Eighth Printing (Baltimore: The Nautical & Aviation Publishing Co. of America, 1992, pp.253-55].

--Lorenz

[Andre Chissel]

On the night 21-22 december 14 torpedo aircrafts from KG26 were launched against this convoy and 8 effectively attacked the ships but without apparent results, later on 06.35 the convoy was again attacked position 35.67N 05.03E by 2 Ju88 armed with bombs and 1 Ju88 with torpedos from III/KG26 and a hit was claimed by the torpedo aircraft (no pilot name) on a 12000 BRT steamer.
OKW reported this attack with the result of a 12000 BRT steamer in flames.


I got this from Alesandro but the coordinates 35.67N 05.03E given cannot be correct as 67 is too high a number ! Could someone please confirm the actual coordinates ?

Check out http://www.convoyweb.org.uk !

Andre

[Lorenz]

Andre -

Did you get the information Thomas and I just sent you? There was no response from you so perhaps you didn't get it and we should post our information again? Sometimes the Feldgrau server misbehaves so it's always possible that you may have missed our posts.

--Lorenz

[alessandro bray]

Hi,

yet I'm at work
tomorrow I give to you exact information on the position ( I can maybe exchange numbers, 36.57N appears to me more probable) of the attack

my sources are various:
OKW diaries, Thiele's LW Torpedo Aircraft and Operations in WW2, and Mattesini and Santoni's la partecipazione tedesca alla guerra aeronavale nel mediterraneo.
PS Its just published "U 565 Das Boot und seine Menschen" by H. Jacksh and maybe you can find something interesting here

Alessandro

[Andre Chissel]

Gentlemen !!

Yes I received everything that you sent to me (unfortunately I was busy and could not respond immediately). Lorenz, thanks so much for the info on the attack procedure, it tallies well with the report from the Captain of the Cameronia.

The information about the gunner that was left out explains a lot but I thought about him - He must have suffered terribly from "survivors guilt" for the rest of his life.

I almost fell off my chair when I saw the book about U565 ! Alessandro Unbelieveable ! And I cannot seak a word of German !!! I will still buy it and try to get someone to translate bits of it though (Thanks for pointing that one out to me). What an absolute utter totally unbelieveable surprise !

There will be a delay re the receipt of the KTB as the person looking into this matter for me is ill but a friend of his will be arriving in Germany on 17th to begin to look into the matter so hopefully, I might get this by the end of the month.

Still can't believe the book about U 565 - Unreal !!!!! Has anyone read it ?

Thanks everybody, I really did not know what to expect when I first started asking questions on this site. You have all been superb !

Anyway back to work now (!)

Andre

[cpa95]

Still can't believe the book about U 565 - Unreal !!!!! Has anyone read it ?

Hi Andre,

the bookseller has offered it since 21.8.2006.
http://www.christian-schmidt-fachbuchha ... e7e3e8caf8

Regards
Thomas