Newbie Question... Alsace Lorraine

Foreign volunteers, collaboration and Axis Allies 1939-1945.

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M.H.
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Post by M.H. »

All nations in the world, including Germany now recognize that these regions belong to France... Except you?
And of course do I recognize that France owns these territories now...likewise does Poland now owns german eastern territories.

But when you sprout nonsense like: "belonged always to France", "no Germans", "always felt french"...I have to pipe in because that is a lie!

German claims are much longer and stronger than french ones!
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Post by M.H. »

Here, extra for you...:
Roman Empire

With the decline of the Roman Empire came the Alemans (or Alemanni), an agricultural people whose language forms the basis of the dialect of Alsace. In the Fifth century the Franks drove out the Alemans and Alsace became a part of the Eastern Kingdom of Austrasia.
Next came the Merovingian period, an intense period of evangelism. In 750, Pepin the Brief, father of Charlemagne divided the duchy of Alsace into two parts : the Nordgau and the Sundgau. The approximate equivalent of today’s two departements of Haut-Rhin and Bas-Rhin.


The Empire of Charlemagne

Under Charlemagne (742-814), the church’s power in Alsace increased still further, monasteries and convents flourished and the province prospered. Though the Emperor only visited Alsace twice, his inspectors came regularly.
The impressive list of provisions specified in advance of their visits shows that Alsace in the eight century was rich and prosperous.

After the death of this first Great European Emperor, his sons dismantled his large Empire : first it was Lothaire who inherited the region but Louis the German temporarily snatched Alsace away from his brother. Then in 842, Louis and their half-brother Charles the Bald ganged up on Lothaire, swearing the oath of Strasbourg just outside the city. In signing this document - historically important as the earliest in which both French and German almost modern languages were used - they pledged themselves to an alliance against Lothaire.
A year later the Empire of Charlemagne was formally divided and Alsace would eventually fall again in Louis arms. For the next eight centuries, Alsace’s destiny was intimately linked to the Holy Roman Empire. Louis the Pious is chiefly remembered for his fondness for hunting in the Vosges. He further distinguished himself by allowing all wine to travel duty-free, thus giving an early boost to Alsace wine exports.


The Hohenstaufen Emperors

The twelfth and thirteenth centuries were the golden age of Alsace under the Hohenstaufen Emperors, one of whom, Frederick the first (Barbarossa), claimed Alsace to be “the dearest of our family possessions”. It was a period of intense urbanization which saw the birth of a powerful merchant class with increasingly sophisticated tastes.
During the second half of this same century Alsace was embellished with many beautiful Romanesque churches. This artistic flowering took place at a time when Alsace could boast of a number of rapidly expanding towns and cities, each with a wealthy merchant class and powerful guilds and trade associations.

In the early years of the thirteen century Strasbourg won the privileged status of “free imperial city”. The city’s magnificent Gothic cathedral was built under the direction not of the bishop, but of a body controlled by the town council.

Other towns that grew in importance during this period were Sélestat and Colmar, Wissembourg, Obernai and Mulhouse. The Hundred Years’s war helped in some ways to increase Alsace’s prosperity, as it became a convenient depot and trading post for goods that could not easily be transported through war-torn France.

Then the picture changed dramatically. A succesion of bad winters followed hard on the heels of poor harvests and then the crowning disaster of bubonic plague. For this the Jews proved a convenient scapegoat, and they were viciously persecuted in the pogroms of 1336 and1349.


The Habsbourgs

By now the Habsbourgs were on the imperial throne. The Renaissance in the Rhine lands brought a welcome return to peace and prosperity. Excess and riotous living became the order of the day, a fact which drew the fire of both religious and secular writers and orators. The region became a major intellectual and artisitc centre.

The brilliant team of architects and stone masons working on strasbourg’s cathedral drew journeymen from far and wide. The Colmar painter and engraver Martin Schongauer influenced artists all over Europe. Strasbourg, the setting of Gutenberg’s invention of movable type thirty years earlier, now had many of the leading printing work-shops in the german-speaking world.
This new vehicle for the rapid dissemination of information helped to spread the ideas and ideals of the Humanists, who were well represented in Alsace : the magnificent library built up by the humanist scholar Beatus Rhenanus, friend and biographer of Erasmus, can still be visited in Sélestat.


The Reformation

In the early sixteenth century the Reformation had considerable impact in Alsace, which still has a fairly large Protestant community to this day. Several of Luther’s tracts were printed in Strasbourg and the great preacher for whom the city was famous included a number of his followers. Calvin, too, spend several years in Strasbourg, meeting Luther there.

The eight formative centuries of Germanic influence in Alsace were drawing to a close as the Holy Roman Empire disintegrated into the tragedy of the Thirty Years war (1618-1648).

CENTURIES OF GERMAN HISTORY IN ELSASS LOTHRINGEN!

Now tell again...who stole what?
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Post by M.H. »

He is a Frank... and as all people know Franks were Germans... lol. This is why Germans call France... Frankreich... LOL LOL.
And what is so funny?

You DO know that the Franks were a german tribes confederation....don't you? :shock:

PS: Ever thought that lot's of those "Malgre Nous" weren't unwillingly fighting in the Wehrmacht but after the end it was easier for them to get declared as such? :roll:

PPS: The native French, the Gauls, got cowed by the Romans...the Franks took the rest! :wink:
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Post by Hugueso »

Well, I won't read that.

You're just pathetic.

You remember me of that small man with a moustache. "Ach our claims are stronger! Poland belongs to Germany, Alsace and Lorraine belong to Germany! Ja!!"

You know what MH.... you should learn from the past, or simply you should go to the toilets and take some rest, you're getting red....

So you're right man, Lorraine and Alsace belong to Germany, you should invade Polans shortly! Don't forget the Sudets! And Austria of course!!!

I 100% agree with you. You won. At least this debate... LOL.

Just one more thing : Send me a copy of your claims to UNO... they're so stronger, it should work!

Not sure Alsatians and Lorrains will ever feel German after your posts....

LOL LOL LOL

But you're right, you can go and sleep well.
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Post by Hugueso »

Sure Man, sure. You're right. You're right.
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M.H.
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Post by M.H. »

Hugueso wrote:...
You know what MH.... you should learn from the past, or simply you should go to the toilets and take some rest, you're getting red....
I should learn from the past?
What? That theft get's rewarded? It was France who couldn't wait for WWI to get Alsace again, right? And afterwards couldn't be harsh enough with the punishment of the Germans with the Treaty of Versailles...we all know what followed from that...

Are you happy now? Was it worth it?
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Post by M.H. »

Hugueso wrote:You idiot.

You're know saying that France started WWI?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Instead of loling around you really should read some history books! :[]

PS: Man...you even tried the same with the Saarland...but your allies forced you to make a poll...and the people decided against France...bummer! 8)
Last edited by M.H. on Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hugueso »

Reading this all make me terribly sad.

I have nothing to prove, I don't understand that man and his agressivity.

I won't come back here. if you have any questions regarding Malgré Nous. please contact me on my box.
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Post by M.H. »

May I now LOL a bit??? France didn't won them either...and only France get's laughed at because of that till today! :beer:
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Post by M.H. »

Hugueso wrote: I have nothing to prove, I don't understand that man and his agressivity.
How about not coming as a newbie and stating lies as facts?
Man you were about stealing centuries of german history! What did you expect????

Yeah, go and learn a bit more! :[]
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Post by phylo_roadking »

....but he's been here a lot longer than you and contributed to this research site, or maybe you didn't read the banner at the top of the page??? I'm sure you can back up everything you say with the appropriate literary references for us all to enjoy?....

You see ?- THAT'S how you phrase and conduct debate on this site......
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Post by phylo_roadking »

....and even Wikipedia differs from your view of the history of the area. Silly me, there was me as a historian thinking all those centuries from the Treaty of Verdun in 843 until the annexing of Lorraine in 1641 and Alsace in 1648 - you know, those years when the rest of the borders of "modern" Europe were forming - meant something; all those centuries under the either the Holy Roman Empire or the Hapsburgs...you know, not France?

And as for how French they really are - that would be why the French government occupied the independent Republic of Alsace-Lorraine in 1919, not even allowing it the plebiscite THEY demanded all other newly-independent German "nations" be given to determine their OWN future......scared of the result, were they? :D
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Hugueso
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Post by Hugueso »

Too bad you can't rewrite history men.
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Post by Hugueso »

I won't answer this point by point (you're an historian, lol), and I am a newbie..... so I'm probably stupid. And you're leaving in Berlin, and I'm leaving in France, and I' from Alsace Lorraine... but you know it better.

What is striking in this all, is that all this political bullshit you're serving us, is the one that has been used between 1930 and 1945 by nazis as propaganda... With the result we all know and the total defeat of Germany and these ideas.

I thought feldgrau was somehow a non political forum... I just realized that there are in fact a few memvers that keep on developing brown ideologies and would like others to believe that Germany was right.

Germany was wrong. Not Germans, Germany. This ideaology you keep on developing led to invasion of Poland, to invasion of Belgium and Luxembourg, to invasion of France, to the invasion of Russia, despite the treatise signed just before, to concentration camps and gazing of millions of people, and to the final humiliation of Germany.

Reading you makes me understand why it is not reasonnable to give Germany a serious army back, without talking of nuclear weapon. A country where people think that one of the most hideous ideology ever seen in history was somehow justified cannot really be taken seriously.

I know you'll answer this, but could you please answer a few questions :
- Do you think the war led by Germany in 1939 was justified?
- Do you think the invasion of Belgium was justified?
- Do you think the invasion of France was justified?
- Do you think invasion of France was justified?
- Has Germany been agressed by any of these countries in 1939?
- Do you think deporting millions od people in camps was justified (including hundreds of thousands of people of Lorraine and Alsace... who were German if I understand you well)?
- Do you think gazing millions of jews was justified?
- Do you think that exterminating hundreds of thousands of civilians in Ukraine was justified?
- Do you think that Allies were wrong?

Please do answer this I would like to see clearly what your position is?

There are 2 things here : feldgrau is beautiful, and the soldiers of Germany are respectful (by the way, all my grand uncles, my grand fathers, and even their fathers were in the German Army)....but there is also this stinky opinion....
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Post by M.H. »

I see only one here who wants to rewrite history...denying centuries of german history in Elsaß Lothringen...and that is YOU!
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