Battle of ardennes.
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- von_noobie
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But what about during those few months, maybe the Americans might get a nuke and use it on Germany..... but then again I could be wrong, the Germans might beat them to the race, and AH would definetly use it, considering at the time the Geneva Convention the use of nukes were not banned, etc and Germany was in a desperate situation, and in depserate situations people do anything.
- von_noobie
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Well the Germans lost that chance, were germany was at first in front for nuclear weapons they lost it becouse hitler thought that germany would have either lost or won the war by the time they got the bomb, And how about i change a little of my defensive plans, a force of fighters and a large amount of twin and quade 20mm AA guns would placed through belguim, netherlands and the German/denmark coast, The fighter force that i would keep would be about 150-270 fighters with limited fuel, They would be orded to attack only after the bombers clear the AA line
it would be difficult to say that, unless ones reseraches real deep into German wartime nuclear projects, etc. About the AA guns and figvhters, makes sure that it is strong enough that not a single bomber gets through.. anyone could be fatal, especially with an A Bomb. One bomber could lose the war..... but at that time, Germany had advanced radar that coudl spot bombers well? That few months could be used to improve radar, thus perhaps helping with the air war. But difficult to win the air war, with loads of P51 Mustangs in the air... unless of course, in the East, you manage to recapture the Hungarian oil fields, allowing big oil supplies for the ME262s.Well the Germans lost that chance,
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All, some red herrings here.....
VN German radar was actually VERY capable and was specifically set up along with fighter control to detect and intercept bomber streams - but at night, where the whole control systen=m was geared to control indivual nightfighters controlling in dedicated "boxes" ANything else at this time would have required a total revamp of the detection net....which was greatly punctured anyway as most of their western-laying fixed stations were gone by this time. The airspace over Germany by xmas 1944 was a leaky sieve with no way to plug it. Twin or quad AA has a VERY limited range - look at the US plan to put a line of Nike SAMs thru Germany during the Cold War; one or two aircraft type changes and they were redundant! And dont underestimate how Western Europe was ALREADY saturated with German AA of all types and ranges...to only limited effect.
HvM - the German A Bomb is a totally dead duck, maybe sadly, but there was no way back from that position. Heisenberg and Hahn were continuing work on a theoretical and experimental basis yes, but in 1945 the US Army captured their second try at an atomic pile - an incredibly primitive affair of lumps of enriched uranium on dangling chains about to be lowered into a moderator of "heavy water" or H2O(3) I think its referred to, Deuterium-enriched water with an extra percentage of hydrogen atoms....with NO shielding. Their SECOND attempt, the first APPARENTLY had been a deadly accident. There had been NO work on Atomic WEAPONS since 1941, when Heisenberg allegedly "played up" the cost of a full weapons development programme. Had ANYONE had a falsh of maniacal brilliance, bombers dusting Allied forces with Uranium dust would have had more effect, or even the threat of doing so to civilian populations. But this was missed utterly - by ALL parties for many years.
V2s lauched from barges towed behind Uboats? No, was tried and tested, totally useless. There were TWO Uboats converted to fire V1s as we know, but although both got to within launch range of the US east coast they were never fired, 1 Uboat was sunk the other returned to Germany. The only military effect at this point would have been to terrify the American domestic population and put pressure at home to offer conditions MAYBE in return for a quicker end to the war. Highly unlikely but ALL commentators look on that as being a possible result of ANY bombardment of the continental USA.
HvM - the problem with ME262s wasn't fuel supplies; quite the reverse, so you know what they run on? Parafin, basically home heating oil! Thats exactly why in Germany - and lets face it other countries too - jet engine development was allowed, because apart from performance increases, it offered this at NO cost in precious wartime resources like petrol or Hi-octane aviation spirit! Parafin can be distilled even from COAL! and shel oil, both readily available in the Ersatz German war economy. ALL jet engines run on the same, even today! Thats why in 1974, when the Isrealis were almost out of JP2 - as its now known - for their fighters and the tide of the Six Day War had turned to the defensive....they sent the Army into the Arab Quarter in Jerusalem, emptied every lamp and heater they found, and got the Isreali Air Force into the sir for a vital two days more!
The problem with the ME262 and ANY German jet engines was their short lifetime in use, I think something like 15 or 20 hours, due to them being cobbled together out of lower-grade materials than they needed, due to huge shortages of industrial chrome and tungsten....NOT helped by the fact that what there was of these were now needed for the latest-generation of squeezebore high-calibre antitank guns. SO ONE they couldn't build anything like enoguh engines, and rows of useless 262s ended up parked up without engines, and TWO what DID get finished and into the air needed replacement engines almost as soon as they took off! Totally unlike the admittedly-slower but MUCH longer lived Meteor power units.
VN, yes the Volksturm was short of weapons, but theres not such thing as a useless weapon - ANY rifle with a bullet in it will still kill someone in trained hands, and what there WAS were tens of thousands of panzerfausts. Given the way warfare had changed during the preceeding years, then THESE were more useful that rifles.
The idea of building antitank ditches or berms is very valid - IF there had been time bought back to construct them. However - don't forget that one of the T34's great virtues was the way it handled ALL terrain, including ditches
Any earthworks would have had to be combined with properly scoped-out antitank defences and preferably tankbusting sircxraft too....and these were no longer available.
A victory or even partial victory in the Ardennes would have bought time - but as we know even TIME is not infinite, and would have had to be rationed out alongside raw materials. There's only so much you can do with it once youve bought it. Don't look for TOO much to come from even taking Antwerp.... maybe in the end the ONLY longlasting effect that would have come from it would have been vastly greater Allied casualties in taking Germany, and then just maybe the WESTERN Allies treatment and reconstruction would not have been anything like as "benevolent"...? Imagine living now in a Germany where the old WEST Germany had been knocked back into the last century like the Soviets tried to do with East Germany???
phylo
VN German radar was actually VERY capable and was specifically set up along with fighter control to detect and intercept bomber streams - but at night, where the whole control systen=m was geared to control indivual nightfighters controlling in dedicated "boxes" ANything else at this time would have required a total revamp of the detection net....which was greatly punctured anyway as most of their western-laying fixed stations were gone by this time. The airspace over Germany by xmas 1944 was a leaky sieve with no way to plug it. Twin or quad AA has a VERY limited range - look at the US plan to put a line of Nike SAMs thru Germany during the Cold War; one or two aircraft type changes and they were redundant! And dont underestimate how Western Europe was ALREADY saturated with German AA of all types and ranges...to only limited effect.
HvM - the German A Bomb is a totally dead duck, maybe sadly, but there was no way back from that position. Heisenberg and Hahn were continuing work on a theoretical and experimental basis yes, but in 1945 the US Army captured their second try at an atomic pile - an incredibly primitive affair of lumps of enriched uranium on dangling chains about to be lowered into a moderator of "heavy water" or H2O(3) I think its referred to, Deuterium-enriched water with an extra percentage of hydrogen atoms....with NO shielding. Their SECOND attempt, the first APPARENTLY had been a deadly accident. There had been NO work on Atomic WEAPONS since 1941, when Heisenberg allegedly "played up" the cost of a full weapons development programme. Had ANYONE had a falsh of maniacal brilliance, bombers dusting Allied forces with Uranium dust would have had more effect, or even the threat of doing so to civilian populations. But this was missed utterly - by ALL parties for many years.
V2s lauched from barges towed behind Uboats? No, was tried and tested, totally useless. There were TWO Uboats converted to fire V1s as we know, but although both got to within launch range of the US east coast they were never fired, 1 Uboat was sunk the other returned to Germany. The only military effect at this point would have been to terrify the American domestic population and put pressure at home to offer conditions MAYBE in return for a quicker end to the war. Highly unlikely but ALL commentators look on that as being a possible result of ANY bombardment of the continental USA.
HvM - the problem with ME262s wasn't fuel supplies; quite the reverse, so you know what they run on? Parafin, basically home heating oil! Thats exactly why in Germany - and lets face it other countries too - jet engine development was allowed, because apart from performance increases, it offered this at NO cost in precious wartime resources like petrol or Hi-octane aviation spirit! Parafin can be distilled even from COAL! and shel oil, both readily available in the Ersatz German war economy. ALL jet engines run on the same, even today! Thats why in 1974, when the Isrealis were almost out of JP2 - as its now known - for their fighters and the tide of the Six Day War had turned to the defensive....they sent the Army into the Arab Quarter in Jerusalem, emptied every lamp and heater they found, and got the Isreali Air Force into the sir for a vital two days more!
The problem with the ME262 and ANY German jet engines was their short lifetime in use, I think something like 15 or 20 hours, due to them being cobbled together out of lower-grade materials than they needed, due to huge shortages of industrial chrome and tungsten....NOT helped by the fact that what there was of these were now needed for the latest-generation of squeezebore high-calibre antitank guns. SO ONE they couldn't build anything like enoguh engines, and rows of useless 262s ended up parked up without engines, and TWO what DID get finished and into the air needed replacement engines almost as soon as they took off! Totally unlike the admittedly-slower but MUCH longer lived Meteor power units.
VN, yes the Volksturm was short of weapons, but theres not such thing as a useless weapon - ANY rifle with a bullet in it will still kill someone in trained hands, and what there WAS were tens of thousands of panzerfausts. Given the way warfare had changed during the preceeding years, then THESE were more useful that rifles.
The idea of building antitank ditches or berms is very valid - IF there had been time bought back to construct them. However - don't forget that one of the T34's great virtues was the way it handled ALL terrain, including ditches
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A victory or even partial victory in the Ardennes would have bought time - but as we know even TIME is not infinite, and would have had to be rationed out alongside raw materials. There's only so much you can do with it once youve bought it. Don't look for TOO much to come from even taking Antwerp.... maybe in the end the ONLY longlasting effect that would have come from it would have been vastly greater Allied casualties in taking Germany, and then just maybe the WESTERN Allies treatment and reconstruction would not have been anything like as "benevolent"...? Imagine living now in a Germany where the old WEST Germany had been knocked back into the last century like the Soviets tried to do with East Germany???
phylo
- von_noobie
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Ok lets figure out how long the advance is going to take before we can work out what we can do with the Russians, The defence around the Russian lines cold work as that requires little armour but enought AT guns, But offensive measures can not be taken in until the west is delt with,
I would assume that the ardennes was delt with in 2 days as that was all they had the supplys for if they wanted to succeed, I would than allow another 8 days to reach antwerp assuming there is little resistance, if not a max of 12 days, And another 10 days give or take to clear out the rest of belguim and establish a strong line around the allied armys that are trapped, We are looking atmost 30 days but no more,
Allow another 15 days to transport all troops and equiptment/tanks etc to the Russian front, Hopefully the line has held, Give another 15 days before a offensive in Hungary even starts making preperations, Launch an offensive in Hungary on Febuary 1st give or take, I would not use Deitrich as he could at mostcommand a division, They tried having him command an army and they lost, its a classic example that rommel could atmost command an army better off with an armoured corps thoe and yet they put him in charge of an army group, Big mistake.
There would be a window of attack for a short time, I would use the same plan but the second panzer army and army groupe E must be reinforced with a largew amount of armour and as much motorised troops as possible as there plans call for rapid breakthrough, They would start on the 1st while the Sixth SS panzer army would start on the 2nd or 3rd, Hopefully the breakthroughs made by the 2nd pnz army and AGE would distract russian troops and allow the 6th SS pnz army to get past the water courses and cannals with few losses, By the time this is over if possible take advantage of the breakthrough and shoot forward to capture as much ground as possible,
I would assume that the ardennes was delt with in 2 days as that was all they had the supplys for if they wanted to succeed, I would than allow another 8 days to reach antwerp assuming there is little resistance, if not a max of 12 days, And another 10 days give or take to clear out the rest of belguim and establish a strong line around the allied armys that are trapped, We are looking atmost 30 days but no more,
Allow another 15 days to transport all troops and equiptment/tanks etc to the Russian front, Hopefully the line has held, Give another 15 days before a offensive in Hungary even starts making preperations, Launch an offensive in Hungary on Febuary 1st give or take, I would not use Deitrich as he could at mostcommand a division, They tried having him command an army and they lost, its a classic example that rommel could atmost command an army better off with an armoured corps thoe and yet they put him in charge of an army group, Big mistake.
There would be a window of attack for a short time, I would use the same plan but the second panzer army and army groupe E must be reinforced with a largew amount of armour and as much motorised troops as possible as there plans call for rapid breakthrough, They would start on the 1st while the Sixth SS panzer army would start on the 2nd or 3rd, Hopefully the breakthroughs made by the 2nd pnz army and AGE would distract russian troops and allow the 6th SS pnz army to get past the water courses and cannals with few losses, By the time this is over if possible take advantage of the breakthrough and shoot forward to capture as much ground as possible,
Servus,
The Germans break through the Ardennes, cross the Meuse and take Antwerp. As the Germans approach the city, the Allies begin destoying supplies. A narrow salient extending from the Ardennes to Antwerp is shattered by Allied forces attacking from the west and the east. Some simited time is bought for Germany but not much since, as has been previously stated, fuel is still low and all the while the strategic air forces are still bombing German cities and industry into the stone age. The Soviets meanwhile begin their winter offensive and shatter the eastern front ( afterall nothing has changed there by the limited victory in the west). As someone has previously stated, the war ends on June 8 or at latest July 8 with the Soviets on the Rhine instead of the Elbe with thousands more dead than would otherewise be.
Regards,
Helmut
The Germans break through the Ardennes, cross the Meuse and take Antwerp. As the Germans approach the city, the Allies begin destoying supplies. A narrow salient extending from the Ardennes to Antwerp is shattered by Allied forces attacking from the west and the east. Some simited time is bought for Germany but not much since, as has been previously stated, fuel is still low and all the while the strategic air forces are still bombing German cities and industry into the stone age. The Soviets meanwhile begin their winter offensive and shatter the eastern front ( afterall nothing has changed there by the limited victory in the west). As someone has previously stated, the war ends on June 8 or at latest July 8 with the Soviets on the Rhine instead of the Elbe with thousands more dead than would otherewise be.
Regards,
Helmut
It would take longer, fierce German resistance made the Soviets one month to reach the Elbe from the Oder, since the Soviets began thier offensive in April. German soldiers would undoubtedbly fight really, really tough, now that in the West there is a temporary respite...As someone has previously stated, the war ends on June 8 or at latest July 8 with the Soviets on the Rhine instead of the Elbe with thousands more dead than would otherewise be.
Lets say the Wacht Am Rhein was never launched..the troops used either were holding the line in the west or redeployed to the east. Think of the hundreds of thousands of men (many from what was left of the "elite") thousands of tanks and vehicles, fuel and ammo...Perhaps instead of Soviets on the Rhine, we'd have the Allies on the Oder, with no major division of Germany. Maybe even the DDR being the provinces east of Oder-Neisse....
I totally agree but it still would have only temporarily put off the inevitable defeat.pzrmeyer2 wrote:Lets say the Wacht Am Rhein was never launched..the troops used either were holding the line in the west or redeployed to the east. Think of the hundreds of thousands of men (many from what was left of the "elite") thousands of tanks and vehicles, fuel and ammo...Perhaps instead of Soviets on the Rhine, we'd have the Allies on the Oder, with no major division of Germany. Maybe even the DDR being the provinces east of Oder-Neisse....
H v M,
I don't think the Germans could have put up the same level of resistance on both fronts. As it was the resistance in the west was not as fierce as it was in the east. I just can't see that a victory in the Ardennes could have staved off the inevitable for very long.
The breakthrough to Antwerp would have been a very narrow corridor and would have been attacked by ground forces from both sides and tactical air forces from above. Air power in general would have prevented the Germans from shifting any forces in any scale that would have made a difference.
Just my opinion.
Regards,
Helmut
it woudl still have trapped many Allies Divisions, for the German infantry to finish off. Allied air power, if I remember clearly, the Luftwaffe sent its hundreds of remaining fighters in Operation Nordwind, they could have sent all of them up during the Battle of the Bulge when the fog lifted, and would have allowed some times for the trapped Allied Divisions to be finished off and the German Divisions transferred to the East.The breakthrough to Antwerp would have been a very narrow corridor
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What should have had come ? German army was in the End of 1944 on its last trigger , no fuel , lack of important materials and , what was most important , a lack on the rawest good of all : manpower ! Or why do you think your "holy" (
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What do your "Wunderwaffen" could improve if you are not able to use them just because you have NO manpower ?
Guys , don't watch so much TV ( most of those "documentaries" are nothing more than just "entertainment" ( or "historytainment" ) ...
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Jan-Hendrik
LOL!
But your thing about LAH during the Battle of the Bulge were not correct, here's a passage from "The Devil's Adjuant', from Major McCown, a POW of Kampfgruppe Peiper, remarking on the soldiers of the LAH:
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I stop there, this was still high quality manpower that would have been useful on the Eastern front if the Battle of the Bulge was won.An amazing fact to me was the youth of the members of the organisation - the bulk of the enlisted men were wither 18 or 19, recently recruited, but from my observations thoroughly trained. There was a good sprinkling of both privates and NCOs from the years of Russian fighting. The officers for the most part were veterans but were also very young... captains and lieutenants ran from 19 to 27 years of age. The morale was high throughout the entire period I was with them despite the extremly trying conditions. The discipline was very good...