What if? Europe's map if Adolf Hitler had never existed.

ramscot · Post by **ramscot** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:39 am

What if the the National Socialists had never come to power? What if the Weimar Republic ( or some form of democracy) would have been governing Germany thru the 1930's?

What I am driving at is as weak as Germany was prior to the National Socialists coming to power what would have happened to western Europe with the rise of the Soviet Union?

Does anyone believe as I do that Stalin would have invaded the Baltic States, Poland, and possibly Western Europe?

TIA for any responses.

Ramscot

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:55 am

Hi ramscot,

That seems very possible.

However, it would be a mistake to think that Hitler, or even the Nazis, were alone in wanting rearmament, conscription, an air force, a remilitarised Rhineland, etc. The German Army also wanted and planned for all these things well before Hitler came to power. However, it was more cautious than Hitler for fear of antagonising the Anglo-French. These ambitions also had almost universal popular support in Germany as well.

Had Stalin unilaterally started to move westwards in the 1930s, I imagine that Britain and France would have agreed to a more palatable non-Nazi Germany rearming as a bulwark against the USSR. As it was, Britain was already prepared to make deals with Nazi Germany on naval rearmament.

Cheers,

Sid.

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat May 14, 2005 12:43 am

Hi Guys,
the map you are looking for is a very easy one. A red stain from Vladivostok to the Channel with only a capital, Moscow.
Bye
EC

Herr Jack Daniels · Post by **Herr Jack Daniels** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:05 pm

It all depends on whether Europe and the US would ally to confront the Soviets. If they all decided a Soviet takeover of all of Europe, (except Britain) was a bad thing, then the Soviets probably would have lost.

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sun May 15, 2005 12:51 am

Hello Jack,
Europe was (and is) not a united country but a bunch of rivality and jelousies.
USA needed Pearl Harbour to fight and further three years to land in Normandy.
With a 100.000 men Reichswehr what would have happened?
In Sept. 1939 USSR was able to overrun an half of Poland in a week.
They would arrive at the Channel in less than an year and the game would be over (today too, as without a Red Army fighting on the eastern front no landing by eight USA and British Divisions would have any chance).
No war would been so possible between continents, except for an atomic one in 1946 (but would the anglosaxon countries have faced such an opportunity with the danger for the UK to be the target of a Soviet represail? Sincerely I don't believe this theory).
EC

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Sun May 15, 2005 12:39 pm

Enrico

Or perhaps we would have seen a Germany much like that of Prussia in 1813 with soldiers appearing as if by magic to throw back the invader. The Reichswher was always (nazi or not) a cover for a larger army.

The real question is would their economy have been strong enough to produce the weapons needed and would Guderian and Co. have had the support necessary to have a panzer arm that could really deal with a soviet onslaught. I wonder?

cheers
Reb

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:52 am

Hi Guys,

The USSR only managed to occupy eastern Poland in a week in September 1939 because virtually the entire Polish Army was fighting the Germans. The last time the same territory had been fought over, the Poles had won, so I wouldn't anticipate a Soviet walk over if the whole Polish Army had been available to defend it in September 1939.

The Reichwehr itself only had about 20% more men than allowed it. Thus by the time Hitler came to power it had about 120,000 men available and had trained a similar number since its foundation. I doubt Germany then had equipment to fully equip all of them with more than small arms.

However, I don't anticipate that the Anglo-French would have stood by and watched while both Poland and Germany were over run by the USSR. I can see Anglo-French support for either or both and I doubt the USSR had the resources to steamroller its way to the Channel in the 1930s against that level of combined opposition.

Cheers,

Sid.

Pirx · Post by **Pirx** » Mon May 16, 2005 4:31 am

Sid is right.
I don't think that Germans left only 100,000 reichswehr. With or without Hitler their army soon or later reach 1 000 000 or more. Germans started preparation to enlarge army in 1927-1928, in cooperation with USSR (Lipieck, Riazan). Also defence of Poland from east was much easier than from west, north and south in 1939. Eastern Poland in 1939 that was large Pripiat marshes, woods, poor roads, poor industry, only few towns.
And Russians had no reason for war. Russian soldier was great when he has to defend homeland, but the conquest?

Herr Jack Daniels · Post by **Herr Jack Daniels** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:55 pm

indeed-the russian conscripts probably wouldn't have been willing to attack Germany and Poland for no reason.

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Tue May 17, 2005 6:36 pm

Jack

I reckon you're wrong on that - the Russian soldiers did attack Poland for no reason. And they attacked the hell out of Finland (and got what they deserved for their trouble).

cheers
REb

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Wed May 18, 2005 10:43 am

Came on, boys,
the Russians had the only modern army availabe in 1932 and in 1937.
In your scenario you not only need to remove AH from the history, but the Tukachevsky massacre too of June 1937 and the destruction of the Soviet officier corps.
But would Unca Stalin be so ready to exterminate his Army cadres without a German danger and Heydrich plots? Hmmm...
It's quite easier to believe he would have ordered, any day since 1932, to swith off the damned tanks and to run for the Channel. Only after this victory he would be able to exterminate his generals under the charge of Bonapartism, not before.
What would have been able to oppose the Germans? Some hidden rifles for not amagamated troops? The time the British (what an army, 5 divisions) and the French had understood what was going the game would have been over.

Bye EC

Pirx · Post by **Pirx** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:17 am

USSR had huge army, but very low morale to end 1941. Italians in Africa 1940 had 300 000 soldiers, allies only 25 000, but they quickly won. Finland in 1939 defend also independence.
Heydrich plot? Stalin began terror in Red Army and NKVD few months earlier than he got info about betrayal.

another thing:
Any proof that Tuchaczewski was a genius?... He wrote many books about modern army but if you can read it you find out that it was rubbish.
He proposed for example to build in years 1928 - 1929 50.000 to 100 000 tanks. Can you imagine! Stalin reject his memorandum and Tuchaczewski was angry. 99% of Tuchaczewski works is about communism, aggitation and soviet propaganda. Tuchaczewski's worst enemy were "USA, France United Kingdom, and other capitalistic countries". So Germany also could be enemy, Denmark also.
From 42 000 killed officers more than 90% wasn't in army. Director of Areoflot (civilian airlines) was general, vice-director also. Director of Bolshoy Theatre was General. And on those lists are also NKWD officers, Politruks etc. In 1941 Russians had enough generals and officers to win war.

Walter Wulfsen · Post by **Walter Wulfsen** » Mon May 23, 2005 8:17 pm

I highly doubt the present map of Europe would be significantly different from what it is today (if Hitler never existed), but a lot fewer people would have died in WWII. Without Hitler, the Germans would most likely have never tried to extract 'lebensraum' from Poland, Russia, and the Ukraine, etc. and about 6 million Jews would not have been exterminated.

Cheers, Walter

Torquez · Post by **Torquez** » Tue May 24, 2005 4:09 am

What if the Weimar Republic ( or some form of democracy) would have been governing Germany thru the 1930's?

Not much would change.War would continue against Poland with the help of USSR.
Germany and Soviet Russia begun their military cooperation in 1920s.They both desired a common border.

“Poland’s existence is intolerable and incompatible with the essential conditions of Germany’s life. Poland must go and will go - as a result of her own internal weaknesses and of action by Russia - with our aid. . . . . The obliteration of Poland must be one of the fundamental drives of German policy . . . . . (and) is attainable by means of, and with the help of, Russia.”

- General von Seeckt, responsible for foreign policy in the Weimar Republic of Germany, writing in 1922.

As for Jews-they already were despised in pre-war Prussia, with legislation made against them, the same can be said about Lebensraum theory which was made in XIX century.

Michael N. Ryan · Post by **Michael N. Ryan** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:46 am

If Hitler had not existed the world would have been much better of.

Without Hitler, world war two would still have happened. Versailles was still Versailles. Poland would still be invaded. France and Britain would still be at war with Germany.

What would have happened as far as Austria and the Czech republic is anyone's guess.
Certainly German nationalists would have wanted union with Austria and the Sudetenland.

What would have happened as far as details on Blitzkrieg is anyone's guess. It depends on the Generals.

But what would have happened to the Jews is a good question.

I do not believe the Holocost would have happened though there would be discrimination. Jews would live to complain.