130th Panzer Lehr Division - November/December 1944

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130th Panzer Lehr Division - November/December 1944

Postby Christian » Fri May 06, 2005 2:39 pm

I am looking for information about this unit and in particular about Panzer Regiment 110 for the period of November/December 1944.

Thanks in advance for any information and/or pictures.

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Correction

Postby Christian » Fri May 06, 2005 5:35 pm

Looking for information about 130. Panzer Lehr Division and in particular 901. German Lehr Regiment, as well as 119. Panzer Grenadier Regiment for the period of November/December 1944.

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Postby Leo Niehorster » Sat May 07, 2005 1:38 am

Panzer-Regiment 110 - never existed in WWII.
Panzergrenadier-Regiment 119 was a 25. PzGren Div unit.
Where did you find these? :shock:

Panzerlehr and the Ardennes Offensive have been well covered.

Try "Panzerlehr" and "Lehr" with the search function of this site - over 200 treads.

Google-ing will give you 2590 pages for "Panzerlehr" and 4480 pages for "Panzer Lehr". Also try "Battle of the Bulge" (268,000 pages), "Ardennes Offensive 1944" (45,200 pages), "Wacht am Rhein" (4730 pages), etc, etc. :wink:

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Postby Jan-Hendrik » Sat May 07, 2005 1:55 am

To give this thread a bit sense , here antoher question . II.Btl. of PzLhrRgt. 130 got rearmed with 32 Jagdpanther in Braunschweig at MIAG on 7th April 1945 . They fought as a Kampfgruppe under Command of v. Schlippenbach in the area Peine-Edimissen-Wipshausen . Last trace of them I found around Meinersen . And after this nothing more ...

Who knows something about the fate of II.Btl and its further way in April/May 1945 ??

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Postby Christian » Sat May 07, 2005 7:46 am

Leo,

Sorry about the typo with Panzer-Regiment 110 which should have been
Pz.Gren.Lehr.Rgt 901.

I am well aware that Panzergrenadier-Regiment 119 was a 25. Pz.Gren. Div. unit. In fact, I am not researching anything in respect to the Ardennes, but the actions involving these units in late November/early December 1944 in the low Vosges area. Of particular interest is the following action against the 324th Infantry, 44th Infantry Division.

http://home.twcny.rr.com/cod324th/waldhambach.htm

I woudl love to find out further details from German side.

Cheers,

Christian
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Postby Leo Niehorster » Sat May 07, 2005 11:37 pm

Sorry about the confusion about PzGrenRgt 119 - the title of this thread does read: "130th PzLehrDiv"

The PzGrenRgt 119 was part of the Kampgruppe PzGrenDiv 25 during the fighting as of late Nov 44 near Saarunion. See pages 267 - 271 incl. a map in:
Erwin Boehm
"Geschichte der 25. Division"
Kamaradenhilfswerk 25 e.V., Stuttgart, 1983.
(No ISBN)

There is a very vague description of not even 2 pages, in
Franz Kurowski
"Die Panzer-Lehr-Division"
Podzun, Bad Nauheim, 1964.
(No ISBN)

The other Pz-L-Div book has three pages and a mediocre map, in:
Helmut Ritgen
"Die Geschichte der Panzer-Lehr-Division im Westen"
Motorbuch, Stuttgart, 1979.
ISBN 3-87943-683-2

The multi-volume "Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg" barely mentions that the US 3rd Army attacked. Nothing about counterattacks.

Sounds like a story waiting to be told.

Lots of luck.
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Postby Christian » Sun May 08, 2005 6:44 am

Leo,

No need to apologize. I should have been a little more precise with my initial question.

Thanks for your valuable insight about these various books. Based on your brief description I would say that "Geschichte der 25. Division" by Erwin Boehm and "Die Geschichte der Panzer-Lehr-Division im Westen" by Helmut Ritgen are probably a couple of good sources for further details.

I see that Ritgen's book is widely available however the other one might be a different story. Do you have any suggestions?

Furthermore Leo, do you know by any chance how good/poor primary records are for these two units for late 1944 (NARA microfilms)?

I very much appreciate your input!

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Postby Leo Niehorster » Sun May 08, 2005 8:12 am

Books:
I have no idea how the interlibrary system works in the US regarding German books. In reverse, it takes a while, sometimes a couple of months, but eventually most books do come. You wouldn't believe the security measures taken, though, once they arrive here.

Other sources:
Late 1944/1945 are my weak points - I haven't really gotten into this period yet. Certainly regarding not NARA. Possibly other members could help you there. The BA-MA has all of the KTB (war diaries) that have survived of the German armies. There should be something there. Possibly the divisional KTB have also survived for this period. The KTB are not always complete.

Cheers
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Postby Hans Weber » Sun May 08, 2005 9:17 am

Hello Christian

The detailed information on the Waldhambach action is probably based exclusivly on American source material. There is not so much info to be gained in the sources Leo cited.

Geschichte der 25. Division:

In the night of the 26./27 Nov. 44, Pz.Gren.Rgt 119 moved to Rauwiler (on the tip of the small bulge PLD created during its counterattack, 15km South of Sarre Union), the next night it moved 5km back North to Eyweiler. The next night it moved even further North into the line Sarre Union-Mackweiler. This line was held out some days. During the night 5./6.12.1944, the 25 Pz.Gren.Div moved back further to the Northeast into a line on both sides of Diemeringen. The unit history prides itself that the Kampfgruppe wore out the 4th US Armored with sucessfull delaying actions.

Ritgen, Westfront 44 or Geschichte der PLD

On the 27th Nov.44, the main body of PLD was screening the build up of the 1. Armee's new line Sarre Union-Mackenweiler-Tieffenbach-Wingen (see above). It did so on a line running from Diedendorf to Durstel. KG von Poschinger was tasked to hold Wolfskirchen on the right flank, KG von Hauser was on the left near Gungwiler und Durstel. The Division was now earmarked as a reserve. It was not untill 30. Nov. 44 that elements could be pulled out for assembling near Bining and during the follwing days units had to be committed to plug holes again and again. For example, on the 1st Dec. 44, II./Pz. Rgt 130 moved to Butten and from there committed companies to endangered spots like hill 318 South of Domfessel (in support of 119. Pz.Gren.Rgt). Another company (Kompanie Kozub) was supporting a raid by 11. Panzer Division from Oermingen towards Sarre Union on the 3rd Dec. 44. Waldhambach is not mentioned once in the German sources. It just says that KG v Hauser could hold the old MLR near Volksberg and Ratzwiler, or that PGR 901 had to be committed near Ratzwiller. The tanks encountered by the Americans here certainly were from II./Pz.Rgt. 130 stationed in a forward reserve position at Butten.

It might be of interest that the II./Pz. Rgt. 130 was the only Panzer-Abteilung PLD could field during this period. It was a mixed outfit, two of the four P4 Kpn actually were hastily switched over to Panthers, but the Div Kdr complained that about 90% of these Panthers were in the workshops. Strength announced on the 1.12.44 was thus

5. Kp --> 15 Panthers
6. Kp --> 15 P4
7. Kp --> 15 Panthers
8. Kp --> 14 P4

Looking good on paper, actually only 2 Panthers were combat ready on the same date, with 20 in short term repair. 14 P4 were combat ready, 13 in short term repair. The rest was out for more than 3 weeks.

7./Pz Gren Rgt 901 was the only truck mounted outfit of II./Pz.Gren Rgt. 901., the rest still had a handfull of SPWs in each Kp. It had 6 LMGs and 1 8,1cm mortar.

Pz.Gren.Rgt. 119 is an exageration. Actually it was just I./Pz.Gren.Rgt 119 that was committed. But then, it was lavishly equipped with SPWs as it came from Pz. Brigade 107, beeing the renamed Pz.Gren.Btl. 2107. On the 1.12.44, the number of SPWs was 111.

Regimentsstab:
3 x 251/1, 6 x 251/3, 2 x 251/5, 3 x 251/11

Battalionsstab:
4 x251/3, 2x251/8, 2x251/11

1.Kp
6 x 251/1, 2 x 251/2, 2x251/3, 1x251/9, 6x251/21

2.Kp
9x251/1, 2x251/2, 2x251/3, 2x251/9, 6x251/21

3.Kp
7x251/1, 1x251/3, 12x251/21

4.Kp
2x251/3, 12 x 251/21

5.Kp
10x251/1, 1x251/3, 5x251/9, 1x251/11

The high number of of Drilling SPWs betrays its origin as a Panzerbrigade Btl. It is a late war SPW Btl enthusiat's wet dream, as it had just every version of the Drilling affected KStN 1114, as 1st and 2nd Kp had the KStN 1114 a, 3rd Kp 1114b and 4th Kp 1114 d (the latter was missing further 6 Drillinge to make the Soll of 18 Drillinge complete).

HTH
Cheers
Hans
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Postby Jan » Sun May 08, 2005 10:03 am

Hi
Did the Pz.Lehr-Div. carry offizell the number 130?

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Postby Christian » Sun May 08, 2005 11:10 am

Leo,

Thanks very much for your further input.

I can certainly appreciate the fact that libraries take all kinds of security measures given the rarity of some of these books. :wink:

Since German unit records available at BA-MA are also available on microfilm I might check this out further as well. Maybe I luck out!

Cheers,

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Postby Christian » Sun May 08, 2005 11:19 am

Hans,

I trust that you and your family are doing well.

Great stuff!!!

Thanks for taking the time to post all of this information. This is very helpful and provides me a good picture of some of the aspects on German side. As mentioned, I might pursue this further and check out the relevant microfilms.

Have a great week.

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Postby Leo Niehorster » Sun May 08, 2005 11:24 am

Hans:
Good post. Thank you. Saves Christian some work.

Jan:
(Are you the same guy who calls himself "endzeit Jan"?)

The division's name was: Panzer-Lehr-Division
The units of the Pz-L-Div carried the number 130, except:
- PzLehrGrenRgt 901
- PzLehrGrenRgt 902
- H-Flak-Abt 311
The PzLehrRgt, PzAufklLehr-Abt, PzJgLehr-Abt received the number 130 on 04.04.44.

Christian:
Not all material that the BA-MA has was microfilmed by the NARA.

Cheers
Leo
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Postby Christian » Sun May 08, 2005 11:27 am

Hans: Good post. Thank you. Saves Christian some work.


I would actually say a bunch of work!! Thanks to both of you.

Cheers,

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Postby Hans Weber » Sun May 08, 2005 12:20 pm

Hello Christian

Thanks for the good wishes, I hope you and your beloved ones are all right, too.

Both the KTBs left from PLD and 25.PGD won't cover this period, I'm afraid. There is some stuff left from XIII SS AK, but it relinquished control of this sector on 6.12.44, the day LXXXX AK was inserted on its left flank. Of LXXXX AK, you will probably find not a single shred of paper. If you are interested in the XIII.SS AK and the units that fought under it, then a good buy would be Spwioks/Stöber, Endkampf zwischen Mosel und Inn, which covers the engagement of the XIII SS AK from its beginning near Metz till the end in the Bavarian Alps. It's kind of an insider tip. Very good read and a lot of info on obscure topics and units.
Unfortunately, the Bestand of AOK 1 is not helpfull here neither. But a Nachlass is available N 743 Nachlass Willy Mantey (Einsatz der 1. Armee in Lothringen 1944. The best bet would be -imho-the files of Heeresgruppe G. It's incredible, but here a lot of very late war info (Lorraine, Alsace, Southern Germany) has actually survived. It's on my wish list and the next time I go to Freiburg, I certainly will do a thorough check. You probably are aware of the Bestandesübersicht guide on the BAMA website. You can use the above units as basis to check what actually is left.

Cheers
Hans
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