German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:24 am

Some time ago someone asked where the Germans suffered their losses in the French Campaign in 1940.


Btw - I have a small question partially related to the battle of Hannut-Gembloux and partially to the battle of Ernage-Gembloux from 15th of May 1940.

In English wikipedia I found info that:

During the battle of Hannut 4. PD lost 29 tanks irreparable (15 Pz.I, 5 Pz.II, 4 Pz.III, 5 Pz.IV)
On 15th of May 4. PD lost 26 tanks irreparable (9 Pz.I, 9 Pz.II, 6 Pz.III, 8 Pz.IV, 2 Pz-Bef)

Together it gives us 55 tanks (24 Pz.I, 14 Pz.II, 11 Pz.III, 12 Pz.IV, 2 Pz-Bef)

On 10th of May this division had got:

152 Pz.I, 111 Pz.II, 40 Pz.III, 24 Pz.IV, 27 Pz-Bef

On 16th of May this division had got (161 of them were operational):

137 Pz.I (68 operational), 106 Pz.II (53 operational), 36 Pz-III (18 operational), 19 Pz-IV (9 op.), 27 Pz-Bef (13 op.)

Even on 25th of May (after receiving replacements - 2 Pz-IVs and 7 other tanks) - this division still had got at least 15 Panzer IVs - but I don't know if it is only number of operational Pz-IVs or total amount of Pz-IVs the division had got (including damaged, not operational ones).

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

http://web.archive.org/web/200408042110 ... llgelb.htm

According to ww2 day by day in the whole period between 10th and 16th of May the division lost as Total losses (Totalausfälle):

15 Pz.I, 5 Pz.II, 4 Pz.III, 5 Pz.IV = 29 tanks.

According to Thomas Jentz - "Panzertruppen" - between 10th and 20th of May the whole German army (not only one division) lost 14 Pz-IVs as write-offs.

Summing up - something is wrong with some figures...

Which ones and what is wrong?

================================

Btw:

According to the same Thomas Jentz allegedly between 21st and 31st of May Panzerwaffe lost 63 (!!!) Pz-IVs as write-offs.

Where did they allegedely lost so many in this period?! - during the battles of Arras and Dunkirk ??!! I don't think so !! Certainly not during the battle of Arras. Battle of Dunkirk ?! - where ?! - which engagements / combats exactly !!??

And in period 1st - 10th of June - 9 (according to the same author)
In period 11th - 30th of June - 11 (as above)

So - according to Thomas Jentz:

10. - 20. V - 14
21. - 31. V - 63 (!!!)
1. - 10. VI - 9
11. - 30. VI - 11

==============================

Btw - during the battle of Dunkirk the Germans were to lost:

10,252 KIA, 8,467 MIA, 42,000 WIA, 101 planes

They were to capture:

1,246,000 prisoners of war
1,200 field artillery guns
1,250 AA guns
11,000 machine guns

The Allies were abandon / leave in the area around Dunkirk:

60,000 trucks
25,000 other motor vehicles
76,000 tonnes of ammunition
600,000 tonnes of fuel

The Allies were to lost:

177 planes (including 106 fighters)
6 destroyers and 200 other, smaller vessels sunk

Only British units lost at least 30,000 KIA and WIA

Only up to 338,000 soldiers - mostly British ones - were evacuated.

PS: In my opinion somebody made a mistake and included all casualties (including damaged tanks) of Panzer IVs in period 21st - 31st of May - and that is why we received so high number in this period - 63.
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:51 am

Edited version of the previous post (I couldn't edit it):

Some time ago someone asked where the Germans suffered their losses in the French Campaign in 1940.


Btw - I have a small question partially related to the battle of Hannut-Gembloux and partially to the battle of Ernage-Gembloux from 15th of May 1940.

In English wikipedia I found info that:

During the battle of Hannut 4. PD lost 29 tanks irreparable (15 Pz.I, 5 Pz.II, 4 Pz.III, 5 Pz.IV)
On 15th of May 4. PD lost 26 tanks irreparable (9 Pz.I, 9 Pz.II, 6 Pz.III, 8 Pz.IV, 2 Pz-Bef)

Together it gives us 55 tanks (24 Pz.I, 14 Pz.II, 11 Pz.III, 12 Pz.IV, 2 Pz-Bef)

On 10th of May this division had got:

152 Pz.I, 111 Pz.II, 40 Pz.III, 24 Pz.IV, 27 Pz-Bef

On 16th of May this division had got (161 of them were operational):

137 Pz.I (68 operational), 106 Pz.II (53 operational), 36 Pz-III (18 operational), 19 Pz-IV (9 op.), 27 Pz-Bef (13 op.)

Even on 25th of May (after receiving replacements - 2 Pz-IVs and 7 other tanks) - this division still had got at least 15 Panzer IVs - but I don't know if it is only number of operational Pz-IVs or total amount of Pz-IVs the division had got (including damaged, not operational ones).

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

http://web.archive.org/web/200408042110 ... llgelb.htm

According to ww2 day by day in the whole period between 10th and 16th of May the division lost as Total losses (Totalausfälle) - so tanks which were written-off from ranks of the division (but not from the whole Panzerwaffe and the whole Wehrmacht !!!):

15 Pz.I, 5 Pz.II, 4 Pz.III, 5 Pz.IV = 29 tanks.

According to Thomas Jentz - "Panzertruppen" - between 10th and 20th of May the whole German army (not only one division) lost 14 Pz-IVs as write-offs (and he does not say: write-off from what ?! - the whole Panzerwaffe or what?)

Summing up - something is wrong with some figures...

Which ones and what is wrong?

================================

Btw:

According to the same Thomas Jentz allegedly between 21st and 31st of May there were 63 (!!!) Pz-IVs lost as write-offs (once again he does not stress write-offs from what? - from the ranks of combat units - which means heavily damaged tanks which were sent to the Reich for repairs / rebuilds - or from the ranks of the whole Panzerwaffe?! - which means real irreparable casualties)

Where did they allegedely lost so many in this period?! - during the battles of Arras and Dunkirk ??!! I don't think so !! Certainly not during the battle of Arras. Battle of Dunkirk ?! - where ?! - which engagements / combats exactly !!??

And in period 1st - 10th of June - 9 (according to the same author)
In period 11th - 30th of June - 11 (as above)

So - according to Thomas Jentz:

10. - 20. V - 14
21. - 31. V - 63 (!!!)
1. - 10. VI - 9
11. - 30. VI - 11

==============================

Btw - during the battle of Dunkirk the Germans were to lost:

10,252 KIA, 8,467 MIA, 42,000 WIA, 101 planes

They were to capture:

1,246,000 prisoners of war
1,200 field artillery guns
1,250 AA guns
11,000 machine guns

The Allies were abandon / leave in the area around Dunkirk:

60,000 trucks
25,000 other motor vehicles
76,000 tonnes of ammunition
600,000 tonnes of fuel

The Allies were to lost:

177 planes (including 106 fighters)
6 destroyers and 200 other, smaller vessels sunk

Only British units lost at least 30,000 KIA and WIA

Only up to 338,000 soldiers - mostly British ones - were evacuated.

PS: In my opinion somebody made a mistake and included all casualties (including all damaged / knocked out tanks) of Panzer IVs in period 21st - 31st of May - and that is why we received so high number in this period - 63.

=================================================================

Similar but even more serious problem is with Panzerkampfwagen 35(t) casualties in France.

According to Thomas Jentz allegedly the Germans lost 62 Pz-35(t) as write-offs in Westfeldzug - while in fact they could not lost more than several (11 is the highest possible ammount and 4 - 3 is the most probable) of these tanks as irreparable casualties in Westfeldzug !!!

More about this here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=145318

It is very easy to establish because the Germans did not produce those tanks and we know how many of them they had got in different periods!!

They couldn't have lost 62 of them as irreparable losses in Westfeldzug, if they had got only several of them (4 - 3, up to 11 but this highest figure is very doubtful !) fewer when they beginned Fall Barbarossa than on 9th of May 1940 !!!
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:17 am

Panzermeyer wrote:• British losses in 26 days: 3,457 KIA, 13,602 WIA, 3,267 MIA


Richard Hargreaves wrote:Killed/Wounded

Britain 3,457 / 13,602


British men losses during May and June of 1940 according to Alan Philson were:

Battle casualties:

Killed - 3613 (328 officers)
Died of Wounds - 1325 (98 officers)

(so 3613 killed + 1325 died of wounds = 4938 dead, including 426 officers)

Wounded - 14,030 (736 officers)
POWs and interned - 66346 (2960 officers)

Non battle casualties:

Died of Disease - 648 (23 officers)
Died of Injury - 102 (7 officers)
Evacuated Sick - 10269 (437 officers)

To the numbers mentioned above we should also add this one:

Panzermeyer wrote:British losses in 26 days: [...] 3,267 MIA


German men casualties during Westfeldzug (not only against France) according to "Die Tatsachen in der Ubersicht, Zwei" (Eng. "Facts in Review, 2") (1940, No. 30), July, 1940; - were:

Fall Gelb (10.05.1940 - 05.06.1940):

10,252 dead
8,463 missing
42,523 wounded

Fall Rot (05.06.1940 - 25.06.1940):

16,822 dead
9,921 missing
68,511 wounded
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:11 pm

The overall casualties were:

France 92,000 / 250,000
Belgium 7,500 / 15,850
Britain
Holland 2,157 / 6,889


To this we must also add Polish casualties.

Polish soldiers did not take part in Fall Gelb but they took part in Fall Rot.

Many dozens of thousands of Polish soldiers and officers took part in defence of France during Fall Rot (four divisions - 2., 3. and 4. Infantry Divisions, 1. Grenadiers Division, one armoured brigade - 10., one independent brigade - SBSP, several independent AT companies subordinated to French divisions, Polish air force - PSP - including also Polish AA artillery in France and Polish communication units in France, many Polish soldiers who were serving in French units + some other, smaller units + Polish Navy).

Polish forces in France in June of 1940:

1. Dywizja Grenadierów - 16,165 soldiers
2. Dywizja Strzelców Pieszych - 15,883 soldiers
3. Dywizja Piechoty - 9,600 soldiers
4. Dywizja Piechoty - 3,152 soldiers
10. Brygada Kawalerii Pancernej - 5,305 soldiers
Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich - 5,000 soldiers
Polish Air Force in France - 6,957 airmen (including 557 pilots)
Polish AA Artillery in France - 753 soldiers
Polish communication units in France - 385 soldiers
+ Polish AT companies subordinated to French divisions
+ Polish soldiers serving in French units
+ Polish Navy

Of them, 4,000 were killed or DoW and 5,000 were wounded. 16,000 were POWs and 13,000 were interned.
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:43 pm

4. Dywizja Piechoty - 3,152 soldiers


In fact it had got 11,000 soldiers but only 3,152 of them were armed on 16.06.1940.

1. Dywizja Grenadierów - 16,165 soldiers


It lost 5200 soldiers (over 32%) during the battle of France.

3. Dywizja Piechoty - 9,600 soldiers
Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich - 5,000 soldiers


This infantry division and this infantry brigade were involved in very heavy combats in Bretagne and suffered heavy casualties.
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:21 am

And here another figure from France:

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00051.html

A six-page report of 30 August 1944 (NARA T77, R826, F2114~0) by the Ateilung Wehrmactverlustwesen des Oberkommando der Wehrmacht points out some of the problems. And part of that was that there were actually multiple agencies to whom casulaty reporting was made - often for different purposes. Thus, in the field Sanitats Einheiten made one report of casualties, while the unit Ia's made different reports. As usual, most of the discrepencies appeared to exist with respect to those who died-of-wounds and who were missing. Thus, for example, the report shows that for the Westfeldzug (Campaign in France 1940) according to the monthly summaries of the Wehrmachtfuehrungsstab (via the Heer Ia reports to the Heeresartz during the campaign) losses in KIA were 26,455.
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:16 am

Casualties of 21. Infanterie-Division in Holland (so not against France, but in Westfeldzug):

http://www.historic.de/Militar/22.%20ID ... nd22ID.htm

http://www.historic.de/Militar/22.%20ID ... nd22ID.htm

Names of all fallen soldiers and officers from this division are given.
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Sun May 24, 2009 1:18 pm

Real Wehrmacht losses against France and other western countries in 1940 were higher than numbers previously given.

Only Heer lost 46,059 KIA / MIA soldiers. Luftwaffe lost an additional number of 3,756 KIA / MIA soldiers. And Kriegsmarine lost another 289 KIA / MIA soldiers. It gives a total of 50,104 KIA / MIA soldiers of German Wehrmacht.

But also real Wehrmacht casualties during the Polish Campaign of 1939 were higher than numbers usually given. Heer lost 17,163 KIA / MIA soldiers in Poland. Luftwaffe lost 517 KIA / MIA soldiers and Kriegsmarine another 80 KIA / MIA soldiers. For a total of 17,760 KIA / MIA soldiers of German Wehrmacht.

These casualty numbers for both campaigns should be considered as "at least", because both numbers - especially if it comes to Heer - could in fact be even as many as several hundreds more soldiers KIA / MIA bigger.

Total Heer combat casualties in period 01.09.1939 - 31.08.1940 (during the first 12 months of war) - according to the report of Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik from 30.11.1944 - were 65,754 KIA and MIA. In the same period Luftwaffe lost 7,676 KIA / MIA and Kriegsmarine - 3,024 KIA / MIA. For a total of 76,454 KIA / MIA soldiers of Wehrmacht.

Luftwaffe casualties in Norwegenfeldzug were 789 KIA / MIA and estimated Luftwaffe casualties during the Luftschlacht um England of 1940 until the end of August of 1940 were around 2,150 - 2,200 KIA / MIA.

Total Wehrmacht (Heer + Luftwaffe + Kriegsmarine) combat casualties during the so called Phoney War since 03.09.1939 until the end of December of 1939 amounted to 722 KIA / MIA according to Fritz Hahn.

Additionally in period 01.09.1939 - 31.08.1940 there were 18,344 soldiers of Wehrmacht who were released from service. The main reason for being released from service - vast majority of all cases - were serious wounds suffered in combat. Vast majority of these 18,344 soldiers (including 16,644 soldiers of Heer) who were released from service in period 01.09.1939 - 31.08.1940, were released from service due to serious wounds from Westfeldzug or Polenfeldzug.

Sources:

DRZW Vol. 5.1, pp 960 - 961
Report of Wehrmacht Zentralstatistik from 30.11.1944 (BA-MA RH 7/653 and also BA-MA RH 3/134)
Fritz Hahn, "Waffen und Geheimwaffen des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945", pp 203, 200, 196
Report of WVW/WED from 30.08.1944 (NARA T77, R826, F2114~0 and BA-MA, RH 7/v.653; also quoted by Overmans)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftschlac ... cite_ref-5
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby ljadw » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:53 pm

Domen123 wrote:
Panzermeyer wrote:• British losses in 26 days: 3,457 KIA, 13,602 WIA, 3,267 MIA


Richard Hargreaves wrote:Killed/Wounded

Britain 3,457 / 13,602


British men losses during May and June of 1940 according to Alan Philson were:

Battle casualties:

Killed - 3613 (328 officers)
Died of Wounds - 1325 (98 officers)

(so 3613 killed + 1325 died of wounds = 4938 dead, including 426 officers)

Wounded - 14,030 (736 officers)
POWs and interned - 66346 (2960 officers)

Non battle casualties:

Died of Disease - 648 (23 officers)
Died of Injury - 102 (7 officers)
Evacuated Sick - 10269 (437 officers)

To the numbers mentioned above we should also add this one:

Panzermeyer wrote:British losses in 26 days: [...] 3,267 MIA


German men casualties during Westfeldzug (not only against France) according to "Die Tatsachen in der Ubersicht, Zwei" (Eng. "Facts in Review, 2") (1940, No. 30), July, 1940; - were:

Fall Gelb (10.05.1940 - 05.06.1940):

10,252 dead
8,463 missing
42,523 wounded

Fall Rot (05.06.1940 - 25.06.1940):

16,822 dead
9,921 missing
68,511 wounded
Domen,about the British losses in may and june 1940, I have the following from a official report :officers:KIA 333 WIA 809 MIA 1830 TOTAL 2972 Other Ranks :KIA 3873 WIA 16006 MIA 46129 TOTAL 66008 The report does not mention DOW, CL, NCL .Cheers
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:51 am

French tank losses (combat losses - without captured and abandoned) in May-June 1940:

1669 French tanks destroyed by artillery, AT guns, tanks
45 French tanks destroyed by mines
35 French tanks destroyed by Luftwaffe

In total: 1749 destroyed French tanks (including 151 FT-17)

Source: Survey of Allied tank casualties in World War II, Alvin D. Coox, L. Van Loan Naisawald

Now British BEF equipment losses in France (all causes, captured & abandoned included):

1. Tanks:

Mk VIb - 345
Mk VIc - 62
A-9 - 6
A-9CS - 18
A-10 - 31
A-13 Mk 1 - 31
A-13 Mk 2 - 38
A-13 MkIV - 57
A-13 Mk IVA - 8
Matilda I - 97
Matilda II - 29

2. Armoured cars:

Guy Mk I - 6
Morris CS9 - 39
Scout Cars - 124

3. Carriers:

Scout - 491
Bren - 84
OP - 87
Lloyd - 8

4. Guns:

18 pf - 221 out of 237
25 pf - 700 out of 772
4.5'' hb - 103 out of 115
4.5'' ar - 32 out of 32
60 pf - 19 out of 19
6'' hb - 221 out of 221
6'' ar - 13 out of 13
8'' hb - 13 out of 13
9.2'' hb - 27 out of 27
9.2'' ar kol. - 2 out of 2
12'' hb - 4 out of 4
25 mm AT - 383 out of 386
2 pf AT - 580 out of 647
AA guns - 384 out of 421

5. Other equipment:

2'' mortars - 1350
3'' mortars - 250
AT rifles - 6400
pistols - 10000
rifles - 180000
LMG - 10700

6. Motor vehicles:

motorcycles - 25778
personnel cars - 8834
trucks - 32460
ambulances - 3439
tractors - 2618
trailers - 1551
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Re: German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

Postby Domen123 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:34 pm

Regarding German losses against France and the Low Countries:

Largest (much - a few times - larger than on any other day of the campaign) daily losses were suffered on two days of Fall Rot - namely 05.06.1940 and 09.06.1940. On each of these two days losses amounted to about 4,000 dead and missing.

No other day of Fall Rot - not even mentioning Fall Gelb - was more costly for the Germans in that campaign.

05.06.1940 was the first day of Fall Rot and the first day of attacking fortifications of the Weygand Line.

And on 09.06.1940 if I remember correctly Army Group "A" launched its offensive into Southern France.

So maybe that's why losses on these days were almost 4 times bigger than average daily losses in June (1 - 25 June).

And also almost 2,5-times bigger than losses on the third bloodiest German day in June (which was 10 June).

10 June was closely followed by 14 June - losses on that day were only slightly smaller than on 10 June.
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