Finns / Jews

[CEE]

Could the Finns " animosity " towards the jews be contributed to the fact that the communist doctrines and commisars were so heavily represented by jews ?

Eric

[CEE]

.... this should have been a reply to thread " Finnish war story changes to the worse ". Eric

[Max Boost]

.... this should have been a reply to thread " Finnish war story changes to the worse ". Eric

Finnish animosity against jews hardly existed. Antisemitism was pretty unknown thing even for the finnish facists, not to mention "normal" people, first of all since jews were a very little minority. The POW's handed to germans were Red Army soldiers, (otherwise they wouldn't have been POW's, would they?) and among those there were jews, as in any other group of russian soldiers. And hate against russians had a long history, starting all the way from the times when Finnland was part of the Russian Empire. At least I haven't seen any document that would support the antisemitism in the army or any racism against jews in the civillife or heard any stories from vets or other older people. Maybe one thing that prevented any large scale hostile actions against minorities was that Finland was a democracy. Those eight jews (they were not finnish citizens), handed to germans is a sad story telling that there were few politicians, who were in need to please the germans badly, but that is no excuse to blame that Finland had antisemitism, or had a part in the holocaust. I wonder if any other army had synagogas behind the frontline? Especially among those armies who fought side by side with Wehrmacht? There's a topic of Jewish officers that were awarded Iron Cross by the germans, there is more facts (with sources) to back this up.

Yours, Max

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I am rather surprised that this subject got so much mileage on one thread. I don't think it merits two when the first thread is still going strong.

Cheers,

Sid.

[J.P. Slovjanski]

While it is true that Communist leadership consisted mostly of Jewish intellectuals, the Finns had quickly driven the Communists out during the Civil War, and there just weren't that many to speak of. I am rather skeptical about all this Russian-hatred as well, seeing as how men like Mannerheim served in the Tsar's Army and saw the Soviet Union as an abomination of a once great Empire to which they belonged.

However, it does not surprise me at all that perhaps some Jewish organizations are now claiming that Finland has a "long history of anti-Semitism", and "played a specific role in the Holocaust". Looks like we'll see the Finns tax dollars going to Israel and a museum being built. Thank god for our modern "democracy".

[Max Boost]

While it is true that Communist leadership consisted mostly of Jewish intellectuals, the Finns had quickly driven the Communists out during the Civil War, and there just weren't that many to speak of. I am rather skeptical about all this Russian-hatred as well, seeing as how men like Mannerheim served in the Tsar's Army and saw the Soviet Union as an abomination of a once great Empire to which they belonged.

However, it does not surprise me at all that perhaps some Jewish organizations are now claiming that Finland has a "long history of anti-Semitism", and "played a specific role in the Holocaust". Looks like we'll see the Finns tax dollars going to Israel and a museum being built. Thank god for our modern "democracy".

Hi J.P
you're quite right about Mannerheim's relationship to russians. He served Russian army, but that time it was the only army where a Finn could go. He was loyal to Tsar, and hated communists for breaking the Empire. Still in the Civil War he was working with jägerofficers, who fought for his enemy during the WW1 (Germans), and lead them to victory in Civil War. First of all he was a Finn (even if he didn't speak proper language). I don't think he ever hated russians for their nationality (and how could he, there was dozens of nationalities inside USSR), but for them being bolsheviks.
An average Jussi (or Joe) had not any symphaties like that for Ivan. Russian Empire had pretty strict policy on Finns in the last years, and demand for independent Finland had rosen through social classes. The Communists were a minority (no jews), but with the help of the Russian Commies, they were strong enough to start the Civil War. Jussi had strong prejudices over Soviet Union's politics, and when Winter War broke out, even Finnish Communists began to turn their coats. Russian propaganda, which was pretty poor all throught the Winter War, talked about dropping bread to the starving Finnish people, when they bombed Helsinki etc. Only the True Believers kept their faith on the Workers Paradise. Term "ryssä" (nickname for a russian) began to mean someone who is dishonest, can tell any lies with straight face. Some people could keep communism and Russian people separated as a different things, most people could not. So when the pressure from the east got even worse after Tsar had gone (even thought it was Lenin, who could be thanked for the independence), Finns learned to be very suspicious with
russians.
Well, another off-topic writing released by me, but I guess you are getting used to these

Yours, Max

[J.P. Slovjanski]

This is even more off topic but you know how Soviet propaganda(which is believed today) often tells of German atrocities against Soviet POWs and such? The EXACT same type of claims were leveled at Finnish soldiers in the Winter War, but no sane historian would give those claims any creedence. I guess everybody can suspend disbelief if it means running the Germans down.

[Muumin]

Sounds like Gudrun Schymann.. Ryssi också. hehe.
Funny how the Vänsterpartiet here in Sweden is always getting caught out lying. All those stupid Kiruna Kommunister who went to the Sovjet paradise and ended up being executed.. The VP has just apologised as they knew prior to them going to the sovjet that they would most likely be killed.

I think anti-semitism in Finno-scandic region is mainly to do with Isreal and the fact that they are "Zionist-fascists" rather than Nazism.
It is mainly young leftists who are anti-isreal.
The fact that there ambassador to Sweden is a vandal doesnt help (he smashed up an antiwar artwork that he branded antisemantic)

Sorry my English is terrible..

[sid guttridge]

Hi JPS,

I think there is one major difference between the accusations made against the Finns and those made against the Germans. In the latter case there is an enormous weight of evidence that huge numbers of Soviet POWs died in German custody, particularly in 1941-42. I am aware of no such evidence against the Finns.

Cheers,

Sid.

[J.P. Slovjanski]

Hi JPS,

I think there is one major difference between the accusations made against the Finns and those made against the Germans. In the latter case there is an enormous weight of evidence that huge numbers of Soviet POWs died in German custody, particularly in 1941-42. I am aware of no such evidence against the Finns.

Cheers,

Sid.

Soviet POWS died in large numbers simply because they surrendered in such large numbers the Germans simply could not provide ample accomodations and food for many of them(keep in mind these men did not live under decent conditions even before they surrendered). In addition, as documented by Stalin's War of Extermination, the Soviet Union had a policy of strafing and bombarding Soviet POWs in their camps and columns since they were considered to be deserters.

[fknorr]

Is it not true that "Finnish Jews" fought side by side with their non-Jewish brothers in arms (with the Germans) against the Russians?

Is it not also true that the Germans wanted the Finns to "address" their Jewish situation but did not, sparing the lives of many Jews residing in Finland?

If I remember correctly, although the Finnish Jewish polulation was small, the number surviving the war was near 100%.

[sid guttridge]

Hi J. P. Slovjanski,

The number of Soviet POWs taken is irrelevant as far as German obligations to keep them alive are concerned. One man or ten million - German obligations to keep them alive were the same.

And so what if Stalin regarded and treated them as traitors? This doesn't in any way lessen German responsibility to keep them alive

And do you really think that Soviet air strikes killed a significant proportion Soviet POWs? If this killed all the Soviet POWs who died in German hands, it would have finished of at least twice as many people as the entire Western Allied strategic bomber offensive.

Cheer,

Sid.

[Juha Hujanen]

Is it not true that "Finnish Jews" fought side by side with their non-Jewish brothers in arms (with the Germans) against the Russians?

Is it not also true that the Germans wanted the Finns to "address" their Jewish situation but did not, sparing the lives of many Jews residing in Finland?

If I remember correctly, although the Finnish Jewish polulation was small, the number surviving the war was near 100%.

Its true.Finnish Jews fought in Finnish Army just like all other soldiers.3 Finnish Jew soldiers were even awarded with EK I but all declined of this award.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/mo ... ystory.htm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... nland.html
lhttp://www.uta.fi/FAST/FIN/HIST/tv-jews.html

Cheers/Juha

[fknorr]

Is it not true that "Finnish Jews" fought side by side with their non-Jewish brothers in arms (with the Germans) against the Russians?

Is it not also true that the Germans wanted the Finns to "address" their Jewish situation but did not, sparing the lives of many Jews residing in Finland?

If I remember correctly, although the Finnish Jewish polulation was small, the number surviving the war was near 100%.

Its true.Finnish Jews fought in Finnish Army just like all other soldiers.3 Finnish Jew soldiers were even awarded with EK I but all declined of this award.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/mo ... ystory.htm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... nland.html
lhttp://www.uta.fi/FAST/FIN/HIST/tv-jews.html

Cheers/Juha

Thanks!

[J.P. Slovjanski]

Hi J. P. Slovjanski,

The number of Soviet POWs taken is irrelevant as far as German obligations to keep them alive are concerned. One man or ten million - German obligations to keep them alive were the same.

And so what if Stalin regarded and treated them as traitors? This doesn't in any way lessen German responsibility to keep them alive

And do you really think that Soviet air strikes killed a significant proportion Soviet POWs? If this killed all the Soviet POWs who died in German hands, it would have finished of at least twice as many people as the entire Western Allied strategic bomber offensive.

Cheer,

Sid.

If the Germans were obligated to keep all those Soviet POWs alive, then you must condemn the UK and especially America for running POW deathcamps which had worse conditions than those for Soviet POWs, not to mention sending hundreds of thousands of Serb, Croat, and Russian civilians back to the Soviets.