SS Panzer Regiment 10

Thomhasj · Post by **Thomhasj** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:37 am

Did this regiment fight in Arnhem, although it was part of the 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg, which mainly took part in the action in and around Nijmegen??

Tolga Alkan · Post by **Tolga Alkan** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:00 am

The almost whole division saw action mostly in Nijmegen area against British XXX Corps.Meanwhile there was a Kampfgruppe,commanded by Heinz Harmel consisting of 4 Panzer Mk Ivs(from SS-Panzer Regiment 10), Kampfrgruppe "Reinhold", Kampfgruppe "Euling", and Kampfgruppe "Henke".Kampfgruppe Frundsberg saw actions in Arnhem and defending of the bridge.

Best
Tolga

Tolga Alkan · Post by **Tolga Alkan** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:50 am

I wrote a message but it doesn't show up in main unit histories section,weird.

Tolga Alkan · Post by **Tolga Alkan** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:43 am

Here posting again,

The almost whole division saw action mostly in Nijmegen area against British XXX Corps.Meanwhile there was a Kampfgruppe,commanded by Heinz Harmel consisting of 4 Panzer Mk Ivs(from SS-Panzer Regiment 10), Kampfrgruppe "Reinhold", Kampfgruppe "Euling", and Kampfgruppe "Henke".Kampfgruppe Frundsberg saw actions in Arnhem and defending of the bridge.

Best

Dackel Staffel · Post by **Dackel Staffel** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:14 am

Hi,

Some sources say that the I Abteilung/24 Panzerdivision was nearby Arnhem with about 20 Panther. These tanks are often presented as belonging to the 10 SS panzerdivision.

So long.

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:51 pm

Really Dackel, never heard of this before

. AFAIK this battalion arrived at Arnhem with 116.Pz.Div. in early October. But SS-Pz.Rgt.9 did field some Panthers around Arnhem

.

Dackel Staffel · Post by **Dackel Staffel** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:44 pm

Hi,

For a british para, a Panther is a Panther, whatever its unit.

So long.

Scott Revell · Post by **Scott Revell** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:30 pm

Gentlemen,

Ok.....I will answer everyone questions and clear up a few points. The original question was did the SS Pz-Regt 10 fight in Arnhem. The answer is no. As Tolga Alkan points out, the Panzer Regt (In name only) fought in Nijmegen with the rest of the Kampfgruppe "Frundsberg". Elements of the SS Aufklärungs-Abteilung 10 known as Kampfgruppe Brinkmann was the only unit from the 10SS Pz Dv that fought in Arnhem. Officially this was transferred from the 10SS to the 9SS at the beginning for the duration of the battle at the bridge then transferred back when the bridge was clear of 2PARA (1st Airborne Dv).

Dackel....your post about the panthers from 24th Pz Dv is extremely interesting. In my 10 yrs studying the German side of Op Market Garden, I have never heard of this. And when I say Op Market Garden, I define as the 17th Sept to 27th Sept 1944, not what happened afterwards with the 9th and 116th Panzers Dv and the 363rd VG dv. I am not saying that this did not happen (as I have been suprised before) but could you please list you sources that say this....cheers.

The 10SS Pz Dv did receive some armoured reinforcements during the battle. As I am at work, don't quote me on this one but they received 10 Panthers which did not go directly to the SS Pz Regt 10 but rather were attached to Kampfgruppe Knaust on the Betweue Island (Elst, Driel etc). After the battle, I assume that what panthers were left (i know a few were destroyed) went back to the SS Pz Regt 10 some time in Oct 44.

Lastly...to be a perfectionist....Dackel...the Brits would not have seen a Panther in Arnhem as there is no evidence of Panthers in Arnhem. They would have seen StuG IIIs, StuG 42s, Tiger IIs, Jadgpanzer IVs, APCs and other armoured vehicles, but no Panthers. I have seen the Jadgpanther at the IWM in London...and yes....I would hate to be on the receiving end of that, so I somewhat agree with your post...a panther is a panther...

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:10 am

Revellations, here's a link to a very interesting discussion on Panthers at Arnhem:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?f ... 1048082690

Scott Revell · Post by **Scott Revell** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:54 am

Marko,

Thanks for the post.....I found all the posts on the link there very interesting. Marcel Zwarts, I thought was the Arnhem Armour expert after his book "German Armour in Arnhem" and therefore he has a lot of creditibility in this subject. Even so, I still believe that the panther allocation went to the 10SS....even though the source in the post on the link was the 'Tätigkeitsbericht Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West'.

These are my reasons:

1. Before the airborne landings even occurred, it was the plan to refit both Pz Dv of the IInd SS Pz Kp. The 9th SS in Siegen, Germany and the 10SS in the Arnhem area. Bittrich chose the 10th SS to stay in situ because they were expecting their sub units SS-Pz-Jgr Abt 10 and the I/SS-Pz Abt 10 (Panthers) any day to arrive.

2. Once the battle occurred, the 9th SS was to defend Arnhem and the 10SS was responsible for Nijmegen. As in the link you have provided, Martin Block says that the 'Tätigkeitsbericht Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West' allocates the panthers to the 9SS on the 20th Sept 44. Well...how could they allocate them to the 10SS considering that the British still held the Arnhem Road Bridge on the 20th. That is why (in my opinion) they were allocated to the 9SS. I firmly believe that the Panthers were originally intended for the 10SS but because they could get there, Bittrich would have allocated to the 9th SS for fear of loosing them to some other Front.

3. The last reason, lets say they were for the 9th SS Pz Dv, if this was the case, why would they commit their tanks crews, tank maintenance and logistics personnel as infantry under Kampfruppe Harder (SS Officer from the SS-Pz Regt 9) which fought for the whole 9 days (17 - 26th Sept 44) around the Oosterbeek pocket. If the allocation was for the SS-Pz Regt 9 then they would have withdrawn the tanks crews back from the pocket???

Just my opinion..it is hard to go against primary sources but even war diaries have been incorrect. I have a lot of respect for Marcel Zwarts, however I disagree with his opinion. I believe the Panthers were for the SS Pz Regt 10. Thanks for the link, I did find it very interesting.

All historians will agree that they have a right to disagree!!!

Tolga Alkan · Post by **Tolga Alkan** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:21 am

Revellation,

Thanks for very informative posts to thread.

Best

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:48 am

Hi Revellations, your logic is good. I did read many years ago 20! Panther were in transit West to unknown unit and were 'acquired' by 9SSPD. That's neither here nor there. However, 9SSPD was mostly loaded up on railway wagons for transfer to the rear on 17th September. As you know, they were supposed to hand over all operational equipment to 10SSPD but they loaded half tracks of SSPzAA9 minus tracks to make them non operational. On Brit. 1AirbD landing they were offloaded and tracks refitted.

The Panther's were apparently ferried across upstream from Arnhem and sent to or towards Nijmegen. So, the question is where did the crews come from. I(V)/SS9 was in Normandy and their crews were probably not all wiped out. I(V)/SS10 had been at Mailly Le Camp converting to Panther. On 1Jul44 they had 4. On 16Aug44 still under PzBde10. On 26Oct44 10SSPD had 13 (5/SSPR10) and 10SSPD had 10 on 10Dec44.

The fact that 5/SSPR10 had 13 on 26Oct., although post Arnhem, suggests the Panther went to 10SSPD but I(V)/SS10 was not involved.

Roger

Dackel Staffel · Post by **Dackel Staffel** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:27 pm

Hi Revellations,

A good journalist never reveals his sources but unfortunately I'am not journalist

About this damned I Abteilung of the 24 Panzerdivision.
This is my source :
Armes Militaria magazine ( hors série) n°23 " Operation Market garden"
written by Yves Buffetaut
Page 51 under the profile of a Panther :
" Even if it was never noticed in the different books published on the Operation Market garden, the presence of the I.Abteilung of the 24. Panzersivision is certain at Arnhem. These tanks are often presented as belonging to the 10 SS Panzerdivision Frundsberg. The I. Abteilung of the 24 Panzerdivision had about 20 Panther."

So long.

Hans Weber · Post by **Hans Weber** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:56 pm

Hello

The 20 Panthers (among which 2 Bergepanthers) were among the allotment of Panthers in September simply called Nachschub West. Gen der Pz. Trp West recived 90 Panthers in this way over the period starting from 12.9. to 30.9. 44. He was responsible for refreshing units near the front. This excludes 9 SS Panzer which was sent back to the Reich along with other primarly SS units und became the responsibility of BdE (BTW, on the 10.9. it was still 10. SS which would go, but this was changed on 12.9. when 9. SS was substituted for 10.SS). However, these Panthers were not earmarked for 10. SS as Revellation puts it. Instead, they should have gone to 2. Panzer and 116. Panzer. (General der Pz. Trp West, Anlage 53). These units were also in need of tanks and also under the logistical umbrella of Gen Pz Trp West. Under the impression of the Air Landings, these allocations were cancelled and the tanks were finally assigned and delivered to Bochholt and taken over by 9. SS Pz. Div. and not to 10. SS. Pz. Div (Gen. d. Pz. Trp. West, Anlagen 59 und 104). Martin Block is perfectly right, as anybody who knows him closer would suspect. Regarding the tank crews engaged as infantry: 20 Panthers means two weak Kp. As Panzer crews were only engaged as infantry in dire straits (see Arnhem) chances were we still had panzerlose Besatzungen up to this date. In fact, Tieke lists two Alarmkompanien in his Firestorm from 9. SS Pz. Rgt. So I finally also resort to guesswork: Half of the Abt. got tanks, the other half was engaged as infantry.

Cheers
Hans

Martin Block · Post by **Martin Block** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:07 pm

Thanks Hans, that saved me some writing!

It should also be noted that the above mentioned 'Anlage 104' was prepared at the very beginning of October 1944. It is a listing prepared by the 'Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West' as an overview over the distribution of all sorts of armoured vehicles that had arrived in his area of responsibility between Sep 4 and Oct 1, 1944. So it does not only ID the unit a certain batch of tanks was allocated to by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. but more important it has a column in which the actual recipient is noted. If there are any questions about who had received what and when during September 1944, this is the list to look at. Especially since in this particular case more that a week had passed between the arrival of the 20 Panthers in question and the preparation of 'Anlage 104' I would find it highly unlikely that any changes in assignment went unnoticed.

Regarding the I./Pz.Rgt. 24 I have this information taken from their excellent regimental history: At the beginning of October 1944 the 116. Pz.Div. was transferred to the area of Arnhem in the Netherlands. Before dawn on October 4 the two remaining Schwadronen (2. and 4.) of I./Pz.Rgt. 24 took up covered positions at Osterbeek along the northern bank of the River Rhine. From there they supported the Panzergrenadiere of the 116. Pz.Div. attacking on the south bank by firing across the river into the flank of the enemy.
This assignment ended without loss on October 9, when the 116. Pz.Div. was hurriedly moved back to the Aachen area.

Martin Block

Feldgrau.net

SS Panzer Regiment 10

SS Panzer Regiment 10

9. SS Panthers