Axis Pows in Allied hands...and other stuff.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:43 pm

Erik, there was one over the summer, over a dozen pages' of it - and in it it was pretty well shown in detail that there WAS a policy in place that ALL the major players KNEW would lead to starvation and death. Andre is playing an old debater's trick that you can't except ONE thing as being wrong without accepting that the other is too.

Bacque's errors in his numbers doesn't take away from the fact that the existence or otherwise of such a policyis a separate issue. Bacque's errors only prove that HIS statistics-based arguments on the matter are wrong. It doesn't take away from the fact that there is a huge body of evidence for the motives and intentions of policy planners. HE made the mistake of almost indelibly linking the two together. There ARE nearly two million German service personnel still "Missing" and unaccounted-for, and there WAS a policy that if carried to conclusion would have reduced the German population by millions, and all parties were aware of that.

Bacque's error was in taking one as cause and the other as effect. But it doesn't take away from the simple historical "facts" that those heads are still "Missing", and the policy existed. Bacque constructed a hypothesis and tried to prove it.

But Andre - establishing that Suspect X wasn't Jack the Ripper doesn't bring any of his victims back to life, or change the fact of disembowelment....JUST that the missing piece of a puzzle is still missing.

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:45 pm

phylo_roadking wrote:Erik, there was one over the summer, over a dozen pages' of it - and in it it was pretty well shown in detail that there WAS a policy in place that ALL the major players KNEW would lead to starvation and death. Andre is playing an old debater's trick that you can't except ONE thing as being wrong without accepting that the other is too.

Bacque's errors in his numbers doesn't take away from the fact that the existence or otherwise of such a policyis a separate issue. Bacque's errors only prove that HIS statistics-based arguments on the matter are wrong. It doesn't take away from the fact that there is a huge body of evidence for the motives and intentions of policy planners. HE made the mistake of almost indelibly linking the two together. There ARE nearly two million German service personnel still "Missing" and unaccounted-for, and there WAS a policy that if carried to conclusion would have reduced the German population by millions, and all parties were aware of that.

Bacque's error was in taking one as cause and the other as effect. But it doesn't take away from the simple historical "facts" that those heads are still "Missing", and the policy existed. Bacque constructed a hypothesis and tried to prove it.

But Andre - establishing that Suspect X wasn't Jack the Ripper doesn't bring any of his victims back to life, or change the fact of disembowelment....JUST that the missing piece of a puzzle is still missing.

Completely concur.

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:47 pm

But Andre - establishing that Suspect X wasn't Jack the Ripper doesn't bring any of his victims back to life, or change the fact of disembowelment....JUST that the missing piece of a puzzle is still missing.

Moreover, as others here seem to be implying with respect to Peiper's trial, Its not ok to jail suspect X for Jack the Ripper's crimes if he committed a murder elsewhere not as jack but as himself.

sniper1shot · Post by **sniper1shot** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:11 pm

Sorry troops.
I am also finding that I have strayed from this topic.
This particular thread is SPLIT.

Plse do not start another thread on this as I feel that it will go down the exact same path.

If you (we) want to discuss the German Pow issue then it should be done in the appropriate thread......which is where I am going to move this.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:44 pm

This exact subject was covered in detail on TWENTY pages of the following thread

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

Let's all familiarise ourselves with that before rehashing old and lost argument here

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:36 am

Hi Paddy,

It is reasonable to ask what happened to missing German POWs.

It is not reasonable to assume that they disappeared in Western Allied hands in the absence of names, graves or millions of aggrieved family members.

There were culpable deaths in Western Allied hands but nothing remotely approaching a million deaths.

Why ruin yet another arguable case, this time for thousands or tens of thousands of unnecessary German POW deaths in Western Allied hands by exaggerating it into the hundreds of thousands or millions?

This is exactly the same counterproductive tactic that Goebbels used by exaggerating the deaths reported by German services on the ground in Dresden by an order of tenfold.

These unsupported exaggerations divert attention away from real issues. The deaths of German POWs and civilians in Dresden are real points of contention without ridiculous exaggeration that is neither rational nor helpful to any side of the argument.

Cheers,

Sid.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:14 am

There were culpable deaths in Western Allied hands but nothing remotely approaching a million deaths

Sid, we have a list of deaths of POWs in Allied hands. We have a list of two million "missing" personnel. All that the first list is....is a list of people who's causes of death etc. were reported. If all the various lists we have WERE conclusive there would BE no "missing"...

...except there are, and only a certain number of circumstances available to account for them.

This is what I was saying to you some months ago - Overmans etc. can ONLY be used as a reference for what they cover - we have a gap "in the millions" that is NOT covered; not necessarily a "smoking gun" issue, but you CANNOT say categorically NOT either.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:25 am

Hi Phylo,

This is not about Overmanns. This is about "Other Losses" type nonsense.

The fact of the matter is that on the Western Front there are not a million missing names, graves or families.

Sid.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:52 am

If there were graves they would not be missing...

As yet noone has made a cohesive study of what front the missing are missing FROM. This was outside the scope of Overmans...and everyone else so far.

Bacque attempted to attribute the losses - or rather "gap" - to one set of circumstances...and did it badly.

When someone sits down for whatever reason and repeats the SCOPE of Overmans' work, this time in the direction of what operational areas casualties and the missing were last deployed to - THEN we'll know what you take as already fact

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:33 am

Hi Phylo,

I can buy most of that.

At present there is no evidence that up to a million German POWs went missing in Western Allied hands. No list of a million missing names, no million graves and no millions of aggrieved relatives.

It is, as things stand, a largely invented accusation that, in the absence of any significant evidence being brought by its proposers, doesn't need rebuttal.

What is needed is some evidence before it can even be debated.

As the saying goes "Where's the beef?"

Cheers,

Sid.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:05 am

At present there is no evidence that up to a million German POWs went missing in Western Allied hands. No list of a million missing names, no million graves and no millions of aggrieved relatives...

...As the saying goes "Where's the beef?"

In Overmans. There are 1.8-2 millions German service personnel missing. He was more concerned with deaths than he was with "missing" except to GET that total.

To take your comment at face value is to say that ALL the missing are on the Eastern front...which is patently as untrue as anyone saying they were ALL on the Western front.

Seeing as we DON'T have this collated yet - you can't say where their remains are or are not. Noone has YET collated a list of the names of the missing. Noone has wanted or needed to yet.

(As for missing graves, that brings in the WHOLE issue of the Soviet authorites "scrubbing out" Axis graves and graveyards after the war, as commented on elsewhere)

M.H. · Post by **M.H.** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:54 am

Not to forget...there is still nobody allowed to search the underground of the ex-Rheinwiesenlager.
The last I heard it's still "verboten"...wonder why...
(One could think there is hope in some heads that every evidence will vanish the natural way)

michael kenny · Post by **michael kenny** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:02 am

Mabe it is where the missing million/2 million/3 million bodies are buried?

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:20 am

The number isn't actually up for debate - as it had been pretty firmly identified. It doesn't climb year by year like some. Ridicule it all you like, but as a member of a family that had members "missing" for many years after the Great War, all you do is diminish yourself by your disrespect for the pain and sufering of the relatives and friends of the WWII "missing" on ANY side.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:30 am

Hi Phylo,

Certainly the number of German "missing" is reasonably well established.

The problem is as I have already explained it: "At present there is no evidence that up to a million German POWs went missing in Western Allied hands. No list of a million missing names, no million graves and no millions of aggrieved relatives."

I ask again: "Where's the beef"?

Cheers,

Sid.