The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

[Commissar D, the Evil]

(I say we make Martin a Forum Hero without writing a story...... )

Seriously Martin, excellent work, but I'm not ready to give up on my theory just yet! I hope my next post amuses you--I'm 95% convinced by your post, but a few honest questions remain...

Whenever one dares to argue against anything published one is in grave danger to get a serious bashing for commiting sort of a sacrilege.

Not on this Thread, my good friend!!!!!

Very Best,
David

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Okay Guys, the Commissar knows that it is always dangerous for him to play in territory inhabited by the likes of Jan-Hendrik, Hans Weber, Ron Klages and Martin Block.

However, in the name of Socialist friendship, the Commissar offers these tidbits:

(The 24th Panzer Division:) On 10 January, 1945, the Division was ordered to turn in all tanks, armored vehicles and artillery, including towing vehicles and to transport them by rail together with the personnel and and motorized units from Hungary to the territory of the German Reich for the purposes of replacement and replenishment.
...the Supreme command of the Army stuck to its decision to reconstitute and re-equip the division near Rastenburg.
Due to a lack of rolling stock and owing to the fact that the railway facilities were heavily used and in many places destroyed, the transport movement, which was to be effected by means of some 40 odd trains allocated to the Division, proceeded only very slowly. Glantz. P.414

The first tranports arrived in Rastenberg on 17 January. Glantz, P.414

The first enemy troops reached Elbing on 22 January. Thus, Fourth Army was isolated from the West: and, consequently, the railway connections were cut off as well. About two-thirds of the Division's transport trains had managed to arrive at their destination, while 13 trains carrying the bulk of the communications battalion and all the supply and service units were missing. The Panzer battalion of Panzer regiment 24, which had seperated from the division in autumn of 1943 and was to be moved up now, also failed to arrive. Glantz, Pgs. 416-417

It was impossible to equip the I Battalion, Panzeer Grenadier Regiment 26, Panzer AA 24 and the 3rd Battalion/Pioneer 40 with armored personnel carriers. Glantz, 1986 Art of War Symposium, Page 417, as told by Major von Knebel Doeberitz

26 January
...During the day, elements of 24 Panzer Division, which is in East Prussia, are subordinated to 4 Pz. Div., and remain with it henceforth:
* 2/Pz. Jg. Abt. 40 (9 Jg Pz. IV, of which 8 are serviceable)
* 3/Pz. Jg. Abt. 40 (12 75mm mot. PaK-40)
* 5 telephone and 2 radio detachments, part of the supply train of Pz. N.A. 86
*Commander of the Division's supply troops with 2 and parts of 3 Kf.Kp.
*Supply Coy, Verwalt Kp. and military police platoon. Neumann

I only toss this out there to indicate how fickle rail movement became in Prussia and the state of 24th Panzer.

Very Best,
David

[Jan-Hendrik]

Jan-Hendrik, Hans Weber, Ron Klages and Martin Block

Ich bin unwürdig

Against those three myself is only a poor amateur



Jan-Hendrik

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Jan-Hendrik, many, many important discoveries have been made by "amatuers", since "experts" invariably have their own preconceptions of things. No offense intended to the "experts", but you would be surprised how much the "amatuers" can contibute.

Best,
David

[Tom Houlihan]

...since "experts" invariably have their own preconceptions of things.

Well, it applies to historical research (sort of) but the Ark was built by amateurs. The Titanic was built by professionals.

Now back to our thread...

[Jan-Hendrik]

I thin I will dig myself through Ron Klages' figures , given in this Thread , this evening ...

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ight=wespe



Jan-Hendrik

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Thanks Jan-Hendrik!

Okaay, from Ron's list:

Pz.Spah.Wg mit mg = 91
Pz.Spah.Wg mit le 2cm KwK = 114
Pz.Spah.Wg mit le 2cm KwK(i) = 19
Pz.Spah.Wg mit 2cm KwK = 115
Pz.Spah.Wg mit 5cm KwK = 19
Pz.Spah.Wg mit 7.5cm Pak = 56
Luchs = 30

Can someone explain the 3 different types of 20mm armed Pz. Spa Wg.? What does the little "i" mean? By the way, I sneaked the Luchs in because I love it............

Very Best,
David

[Jan-Hendrik]

The (i) refers to an italian Beutefahrzeug



Jan-Hendrik

[Commissar D, the Evil]

italian Beutefahrzeug

And what the heck would that be????? Which Italian vehicle would that be?
(The Commissar knows little about Italian vehicles...... )

Best,
~D, the EviL

[Jan-Hendrik]

For example Autoblinda 40 and 41 , and Lancia has build some too , as far as I remember ...

But Jan-Hendrik isn't an expert for this italian material , too , that would be rather something for our Michi



Jan-Hendrik

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Ah, a couple of pictures of the 234/1:

This first vehicle is from 4th Panzer in 1945:



I don't know who owned this one:



Best,
David

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Here's a good picture of a 234/3:




Best,
David

[Commissar D, the Evil]

And here's your standard 234/4:



You have to feel for the crew of this vehicle. The 234 series were good, reliable armored cars, but try hunting a tank in one of these! Better not miss that first shot!

Best,
David

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Lastly, here's a picture of the 234/2 "Puma":





For some reason, the Puma gets all the glory when you see discussions of the 234 series of armored cars. This is a little odd, considering that only about 100 of them were produced. Also, the 50mm gun they were armed with was a good gun, but by 1944, not really a gun you'd want to take on Soviet tanks with.

I think it would be a good discussion to have as to whether or not the Puma was a "great leap forward" for reconnaisance units over the 234/1, armed with the 20mm gun.

I note that the next time Germany produced an eight-wheeled armed reconnaisance car, after World War II, it reverted to a 20mm auto cannon as the main armament for the modern Luchs:



So, why is there such a fascination by German armored fans with the Puma? (Especially Kelly Green Pumas crewed by Tom, the Shadow and Sam the leprechaun.)

Very Best,
David

[Tom Houlihan]

So, why is there such a fascination by German armored fans with the Puma? (Especially Kelly Green Pumas crewed by Tom, the Shadow and Sam the leprechaun.)

For my part, quite possibly because I had been looking at the unbuilt kit lying on the shelf when I was trying to think of a vehicle to use!

Other than that, I have no idea. There weren't that many of them, and like you pointed out, that 50mm wasn't the best for taking tanks. Still, with the combat role of the A.A. often becoming more common than the seek and find role, it was certainly a step up from the 20mm!!

Now, it should be on a different thread, but does anyone have any insight as to why the Fuchs ended up with a 20mm, instead of something a little larger?