After crossing the Seine units of the 1st Canadian Army halted for several days to absorb infantry replacements and in one case to hold a victory parade in Dieppe. Were these halts necessary and was Montgomery right to criticise Canadian operations north of the Seine as slow.
He seemed to think, and in hindsight to me at least appears correct, that with the Germans on the run this was the last time to be holding back from the pursuit - certainly Rommel, Guderian or Patton would not have approved - but could Monty have done any more to force the Canadian Army to move quicker? He and Crerar had a blistering row as it was.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated
Tom
1st Canadian Army - Sep 44
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Dackel Staffel
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Hi,
Well I don't know about Monty but maybe he thought the canadians was not in a hurry because the goals of the canadian army was to sweep the french coasts and the germans had planned to defend each port so it will take time to do the job. Moreover, maybe Monty wanted to keep all the supplies for the british army because he thought it could have made the breakthrough to Germany.
Just ideas...
So long.
Well I don't know about Monty but maybe he thought the canadians was not in a hurry because the goals of the canadian army was to sweep the french coasts and the germans had planned to defend each port so it will take time to do the job. Moreover, maybe Monty wanted to keep all the supplies for the british army because he thought it could have made the breakthrough to Germany.
Just ideas...
So long.
All we need it's a Dackel in each pocket
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LukeMiguez
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In my Opinion, even though I am a Canadian and it stinks to say this but, I believe that the Canadian Army in France lacked a lot of Initiative at Falaise. The Canadians were criticized on their slow movement on attempting to pin the fleeing Germans and were unable to completely close the Gap. If they had, the German 12th Army (Not totally sure) would have been completely destroyed in the Pocket leaving open ground until the German Border.
With the Port clearing, it was crummy work for the Canadians but somebody had to do the job. Also the main reason of the Port Clearing was to try to get an intact one to bring in Supplies, since until Antwerp was captured by British XXX Corps supplies were coming in from Normandy.
With the Port clearing, it was crummy work for the Canadians but somebody had to do the job. Also the main reason of the Port Clearing was to try to get an intact one to bring in Supplies, since until Antwerp was captured by British XXX Corps supplies were coming in from Normandy.
I don't think the problems were 'Cnadians' per se. The problem was the Army Commander. His predecessor (McNaughton) had been 'moved on' on British insistence for poor perfomance on large scale exercises in UK and my reading is that Montogmery wasn't impressed by Crerar either. I suspect the Brit's didn't have the political will to demand the replacement of a second Cdn army comd. 'Being nice to Dominions' and all that. If he'd been a Brit he'd have gone.
I don't think the problems were 'Canadians' per se. The problem was the Army Commander. His predecessor (McNaughton) had been 'moved on' on British insistence for poor perfomance on large scale exercises in UK and my reading is that Montogmery wasn't impressed by Crerar either. I suspect the Brit's didn't have the political will to demand the replacement of a second Cdn army comd. 'Being nice to Dominions' and all that. If he'd been a Brit he'd have gone.
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Martin Schenkel
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Most of the available Army Group transport assets (including transport stripped from certain divisions) had been concentrated in a few units, mostly the armoured divisions, in an attempt to get at least something moving quicker than the Germans. Several factors held up the advance of First Cdn Army. As has been mentioned, clearing the channel ports took alot of time. The majority of resources were being diverted to the US and British pursuit of the enemy, and especially the Market Garden operation. Canadian units had taken heavy casualties in Normandy, and many Canadian battalions (throughout the NW European campaign) had some of the highest casualty rates of all the western Allied forces. Heavy fighting, high casualties, and a relatively small replacement pool, resulted in depleted units fighting in tough static battles around the channel ports. And as more and more ports were surrounded, more and more units had to be drawn off to contain and reduce the pockets, leaving fewer and fewer units for the pursuit.
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence" - Sun Tzu
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Martin Schenkel
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Much of the failure of the Falaise Pocket was due to simply inexperienced (as opposed to inept) formations, being fed into the battle. Both the 4th Canadian Armoured and 1st Polish Armoured divisions (tasked with making the breakthrough) were seeing their first action, and against some of the best units the Germans had to offer. Green divisions going up against battle-hardened veterans in a criticle phase of the battle, is a recipe for disaster.LukeMiguez wrote:In my Opinion, even though I am a Canadian and it stinks to say this but, I believe that the Canadian Army in France lacked a lot of Initiative at Falaise. The Canadians were criticized on their slow movement on attempting to pin the fleeing Germans and were unable to completely close the Gap. If they had, the German 12th Army (Not totally sure) would have been completely destroyed in the Pocket leaving open ground until the German Border.
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence" - Sun Tzu
Good points Martin!
Here are a few more comments for all regarding the Canadians in Normandy:
Also, everyone seems to forget that the Canadians made it further inland on D-Day then any of the other Allied Nations. Yes, further than the Americans and further than the British. The first series of armour battles fought from June 7 to June 11 were between the Canadian 3rd Infantry Division and Canadian 2nd Armoured Brigade up against the 12th SS Panzer Division.
What are commonly referred to as "British Battles around Caen" are in reality British-Canadian Battles. The Canadians had an important part to play in the taking of Caen during Operation Charnwood and during Operation Goodwood the Canadians took the rest of Caen which is situated South of the River Orne. Canadians faced, among other units, the 1st SS Panzer Division along the Bourguebus-Verrieres Ridge in July. It is also important to remember that the Canadians and Poles had the Gap closed but the Germans launched counter-attacks to reopen the Gap. Most people are probably unaware of these battles. In my opinion, if one is unaware than one is not fit to make a comment.
In my opinion, the Canadians fought a series of bloody battles during Normandy that are largely ignored by history and they suffered many casualties fighting them. To say that they "were moving too slow to close the Falaise Gap" in my opinion is an insult to them and ignores the reality of the situation. I seriously doubt that any Allied units fighting against the same degree of opposition, suffering the same casualties and fighting in the same amount of time with little or no rest could have done any better.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Here are a few more comments for all regarding the Canadians in Normandy:
Also, everyone seems to forget that the Canadians made it further inland on D-Day then any of the other Allied Nations. Yes, further than the Americans and further than the British. The first series of armour battles fought from June 7 to June 11 were between the Canadian 3rd Infantry Division and Canadian 2nd Armoured Brigade up against the 12th SS Panzer Division.
What are commonly referred to as "British Battles around Caen" are in reality British-Canadian Battles. The Canadians had an important part to play in the taking of Caen during Operation Charnwood and during Operation Goodwood the Canadians took the rest of Caen which is situated South of the River Orne. Canadians faced, among other units, the 1st SS Panzer Division along the Bourguebus-Verrieres Ridge in July. It is also important to remember that the Canadians and Poles had the Gap closed but the Germans launched counter-attacks to reopen the Gap. Most people are probably unaware of these battles. In my opinion, if one is unaware than one is not fit to make a comment.
In my opinion, the Canadians fought a series of bloody battles during Normandy that are largely ignored by history and they suffered many casualties fighting them. To say that they "were moving too slow to close the Falaise Gap" in my opinion is an insult to them and ignores the reality of the situation. I seriously doubt that any Allied units fighting against the same degree of opposition, suffering the same casualties and fighting in the same amount of time with little or no rest could have done any better.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
Canadians
I'd guess a victory parade in Dieppe was considered a morale builder for the much battered Canadian Army.
Equally, I reckon Monty had plenty on his mind with his scramble for resources what with he and Patton running sort of a race. I am unaware if this happened before or after Market Garden so that too would be a distraction.
Like at Goodwood and Totalize I think the 21 Army Group was intent on keeping infantry casualties down and using armour to do the job. (and that was not exactly Monty's forte...)
If anything, I think Ike might be to blame for not getting a grip on his prima donna commanders. He had a tough, very political job and while he kept the coalition together I have to say his command style left something to be desired. (such as allowing Bradly to burn up so many resoureces at Aachen / Huertgen)
reb
Equally, I reckon Monty had plenty on his mind with his scramble for resources what with he and Patton running sort of a race. I am unaware if this happened before or after Market Garden so that too would be a distraction.
Like at Goodwood and Totalize I think the 21 Army Group was intent on keeping infantry casualties down and using armour to do the job. (and that was not exactly Monty's forte...)
If anything, I think Ike might be to blame for not getting a grip on his prima donna commanders. He had a tough, very political job and while he kept the coalition together I have to say his command style left something to be desired. (such as allowing Bradly to burn up so many resoureces at Aachen / Huertgen)
reb